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Which engine would you choose for a swap?

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  • Wanganstyle
    replied
    Originally posted by roguetoaster View Post
    Sure, haven't owned one, but have known more than a few locals who have, and as before, easy to own, but not maintenance free if you want uninterrupted usage. Basically anyone who does preventive maintenance, such as you undoubtedly do is going to have a great experience. Won't disagree that non hydraulic valves are better for performance, but do think it's odd that Honda kept that system around for so long in more plebeian vehicles, wheras in an S2K it males perfect sense.
    Gear drive full mechanical 9,200 rpm factory rev limit race engine. Better be on top of everything, but it will serve you very well Same for the s54, 8,000 rpm and magical fat torque powerband, you can turn it up to 8500rpm reasonably if you are also on top of EVERYTHING. The HLA’s in my s52 were tired by about 50hrs but still alive when chassis retired at 78hrs. Very good hla system honestly, just not motorsports focused.
    Last edited by Wanganstyle; 08-27-2019, 07:49 AM.

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  • nando
    replied
    because it's simple and effective.

    HLA is great for the warranty period where the manufacturer doesn't want to spend a dime maintaining your car under warranty. Then the tiny oil passages start to gum up and you get collapsed lifters, ticking, and even lower performance. And a very expensive bill to have them replaced if needed.

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  • roguetoaster
    replied
    Sure, haven't owned one, but have known more than a few locals who have, and as before, easy to own, but not maintenance free if you want uninterrupted usage. Basically anyone who does preventive maintenance, such as you undoubtedly do is going to have a great experience.

    Won't disagree that non hydraulic valves are better for performance, but do think it's odd that Honda kept that system around for so long in more plebeian vehicles, wheras in an S2K it males perfect sense.

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  • Wanganstyle
    replied
    Originally posted by roguetoaster View Post
    They do appear to be fun, easy to own engines, but maintenance free they are not. Still find it odd that Honda continued with laah adjustments as part of regular maintenance until very recently or possibly presently.
    If you have never owned one or ran one then no such actual experience. I’ve also ran the s54; marvelous engine. Does need more frequent service than the f20c; the f20c is gear drive between the camshafts. Everything requires following proper service; if you treat it properly the f20c is pretty much hands off. A s54 also requires proper valve adjustments but at much shorter intervals than the f20c Honda factory service 1 @ 105k miles. If you can’t drive and miss shifts then you’ll blow the f20c valvetrain. And the s54 and all others. That would be user error; not manufacturer design issues. Both f20c and s54 are marvelous mechanical valvetrains that do require adjustment. If you want non adjust hla then you are asking for a lower performance design engine.

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  • roguetoaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Wanganstyle View Post
    The f20c is also bulletproof and maintenance free. For the last 52hrs of time attack use my f20c has had one valve adjustment (and it was still within spec). First factory service valve adjustment is at 105k miles; change the oil religiously after every event thats it. There is an advantage to more rpms with the same power; more range each gear; its a lot easier to pass someone when they are shifting and you can just keep it wot.
    They do appear to be fun, easy to own engines, but maintenance free they are not. Still find it odd that Honda continued with laah adjustments as part of regular maintenance until very recently or possibly presently.

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  • Wanganstyle
    replied
    Originally posted by varg View Post
    Not cherrypicking at all, M20, M54 and LS1 are the first 3 engines I thought made sense in this context considering OP's original poll and thread discussion. The S54 is a performance dynamo, but unfortunately loses a lot of favorability once its weight and reputation due to the TSB are taken into account. Minus the S14, all other motors I mentioned are known for last hundreds of thousands of miles aside from cases of extreme neglect. It still somehow loses out in specific power output to the F20 series despite the torque.
    The f20c is also bulletproof and maintenance free. For the last 52hrs of time attack use my f20c has had one valve adjustment (and it was still within spec). First factory service valve adjustment is at 105k miles; change the oil religiously after every event thats it. There is an advantage to more rpms with the same power; more range each gear; its a lot easier to pass someone when they are shifting and you can just keep it wot.

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  • varg
    replied
    Not cherrypicking at all, M20, M54 and LS1 are the first 3 engines I thought made sense in this context considering OP's original poll and thread discussion.

    The S54 is a performance dynamo, but unfortunately loses a lot of favorability once its weight and reputation due to the TSB are taken into account. Minus the S14, all other motors I mentioned are known for last hundreds of thousands of miles aside from cases of extreme neglect. It still somehow loses out in specific power output to the F20 series despite the torque.

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  • digger
    replied
    Originally posted by varg View Post

    Sorry for any confusion, but I quoted what I specifically meant to address, which is "no torque for the size". 77lbft/L is far from that, it's actually damn good, and the Honda motor compares very favorably with the S14, making similar specific torque but annihilating it in specific power. 77lbft/L is more specific torque than an M20B25, M54B30... LS1 even! Proof that the no torque Honda meme doesn't apply to an F20 at least, because if that Honda motor was 5.7L it would be making more torque than a Camaro.
    ok cherry pick engines run of mill the engines why dont you ;) . yes it compares favourably to an engine from mid 80's honda must be proud. its not any better than a N52 executive style engine

    btw S54 82-84lbft/L ~10% more.....

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  • varg
    replied
    Originally posted by digger View Post


    that's basically what i said, the S14 makes just about as good VE. I never said the S14 was good I was addressing Wanganstyle comment.

    The S14 has an excuse though, its from early/mid 80's and hopeless engine management, single cam profile. Compare the stuff from same ERA as F20C. BMW have stuff in the 80s for numbers

    the shape of the power curve matters as well, you cant look at the peak number and say you can gear it just as well as most drive trains dont have CVT. If you compare a normalized power curve then you start to be able to compare different engines with a similar peak number.
    Sorry for any confusion, but I quoted what I specifically meant to address, which is "no torque for the size". 77lbft/L is far from that, it's actually damn good, and the Honda motor compares very favorably with the S14, making similar specific torque but annihilating it in specific power. 77lbft/L is more specific torque than an M20B25, M54B30... LS1 even! Proof that the no torque Honda meme doesn't apply to an F20 at least, because if that Honda motor was 5.7L it would be making more torque than a Camaro.

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  • digger
    replied
    Originally posted by varg View Post

    S14B20 - 1,990cc - 189bhp/155lbft @6,900rpm/4,900rpm
    F20C - 1,997cc - 234bhp/155lbft @8,300rpm/7,500rpm

    77.8 vs 77.6lbft/L
    No discernible difference (<1%)

    S14B23 - 2,302cc - 212bhp/170lbft @6,750rpm/4,600rpm
    F22C - 2,157cc - 237bhp/162lbft @7,800rpm/6,500rpm

    73.8 vs 75.1lbft/L
    Barely discernible difference (1.7%) but if you want to count it, advantage F22C.

    In the end, specific torque is about the same between the two
    As for RPM, if you select your final drive gearing for the application it doesn't really make a difference, aside from bragging rights maybe.

    that's basically what i said, the S14 makes just about as good VE. I never said the S14 was good I was addressing Wanganstyle comment.

    The S14 has an excuse though, its from early/mid 80's and hopeless engine management, single cam profile. Compare the stuff from same ERA as F20C. BMW have stuff in the 80s for numbers on their performance stuff

    the shape of the power curve matters as well, you cant look at the peak number and say you can gear it just as well as most drive trains dont have CVT. If you compare a normalized power curve then you start to be able to compare different engines with a similar peak number.
    Last edited by digger; 08-25-2019, 03:47 PM.

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  • varg
    replied
    Originally posted by digger View Post
    no torque for the size
    S14B20 - 1,990cc - 189bhp/155lbft @6,900rpm/4,900rpm
    F20C - 1,997cc - 234bhp/155lbft @8,300rpm/7,500rpm

    77.8 vs 77.6lbft/L
    No discernible difference (<1%)

    S14B23 - 2,302cc - 212bhp/170lbft @6,750rpm/4,600rpm
    F22C - 2,157cc - 237bhp/162lbft @7,800rpm/6,500rpm

    73.8 vs 75.1lbft/L
    Barely discernible difference (1.7%) but if you want to count it, advantage F22C.

    In the end, specific torque is about the same between the two
    As for RPM, if you select your final drive gearing for the application it doesn't really make a difference, aside from bragging rights maybe.

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  • digger
    replied
    Originally posted by Wanganstyle View Post
    If using that logic you would install A m73b54; would destroy anything at 1500rpm. A Chevy Lsx does work also at low rpm even better than a m73 v12 or any bmw power unit Opinions are like assholes. And the statement was intentionally made to irritate purists Drive a stock s14, drive a stock f20c. The s14 is shit in comparison; and yes it’s because of a decade of modern technology. I made my own m54b28 obd1 alu block single vanos. Because I could
    If the goal is simply the most power or torque then sure just swap in a big engine.

    personally I'd want a hp that the chassis can handle comfortably without needing to modify everything yet also not need to be wound up to get any power. The f20 is too gutless to be worth it imo.

    The stock s14 in some variants is actually just as efficient as as stock f20c in terms of VE. Honda have always needed more revs the the Europeans to achieve the same power. Even with two cam profiles still has no torque for the size. Sure they can make big power with mods but isn't that part of the point of the swap to put something in there that's alot better

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  • george graves
    replied
    This thread might as well have been titled "What girl would you choose" - to each their own. You like big booty bitches, get yourself an m30B35. You like chicks with a white girl booty, get yourself an s14. You like a basic bitch, you get a m/s5x. Some of you have the asian fever, so get your 2jz on. :)

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  • Wanganstyle
    replied
    Originally posted by digger View Post
    why rev 9200 when you can get the job done with 6000....
    If using that logic you would install A m73b54; would destroy anything at 1500rpm. A Chevy Lsx does work also at low rpm even better than a m73 v12 or any bmw power unit
    Originally posted by Andrew325is View Post
    Wanganstyle, do you mean M52TUb28? Because there is no M54b28 unless of course you made one combing M52TU and M54 bits. “S14 is shit”... that’s a really interesting opinion.
    Opinions are like assholes. And the statement was intentionally made to irritate purists Drive a stock s14, drive a stock f20c. The s14 is shit in comparison; and yes it’s because of a decade of modern technology. I made my own m54b28 obd1 alu block single vanos. Because I could

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  • Andrew325is
    replied
    Wanganstyle, do you mean M52TUb28? Because there is no M54b28 unless of course you made one combing M52TU and M54 bits. S14 is shit... thats a really interesting opinion.

    Leave a comment:

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