Originally posted by roguetoaster
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Which engine would you choose for a swap?
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Last edited by Wanganstyle; 08-27-2019, 07:49 AM.
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because it's simple and effective.
HLA is great for the warranty period where the manufacturer doesn't want to spend a dime maintaining your car under warranty. Then the tiny oil passages start to gum up and you get collapsed lifters, ticking, and even lower performance. And a very expensive bill to have them replaced if needed.
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Sure, haven't owned one, but have known more than a few locals who have, and as before, easy to own, but not maintenance free if you want uninterrupted usage. Basically anyone who does preventive maintenance, such as you undoubtedly do is going to have a great experience.
Won't disagree that non hydraulic valves are better for performance, but do think it's odd that Honda kept that system around for so long in more plebeian vehicles, wheras in an S2K it males perfect sense.
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Originally posted by roguetoaster View PostThey do appear to be fun, easy to own engines, but maintenance free they are not. Still find it odd that Honda continued with laah adjustments as part of regular maintenance until very recently or possibly presently.
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Originally posted by Wanganstyle View PostThe f20c is also bulletproof and maintenance free. For the last 52hrs of time attack use my f20c has had one valve adjustment (and it was still within spec). First factory service valve adjustment is at 105k miles; change the oil religiously after every event that’s it. There is an advantage to more rpm’s with the same power; more range each gear; it’s a lot easier to pass someone when they are shifting and you can just keep it wot.
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Originally posted by varg View PostNot cherrypicking at all, M20, M54 and LS1 are the first 3 engines I thought made sense in this context considering OP's original poll and thread discussion. The S54 is a performance dynamo, but unfortunately loses a lot of favorability once its weight and reputation due to the TSB are taken into account. Minus the S14, all other motors I mentioned are known for last hundreds of thousands of miles aside from cases of extreme neglect. It still somehow loses out in specific power output to the F20 series despite the torque.
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Not cherrypicking at all, M20, M54 and LS1 are the first 3 engines I thought made sense in this context considering OP's original poll and thread discussion.
The S54 is a performance dynamo, but unfortunately loses a lot of favorability once its weight and reputation due to the TSB are taken into account. Minus the S14, all other motors I mentioned are known for last hundreds of thousands of miles aside from cases of extreme neglect. It still somehow loses out in specific power output to the F20 series despite the torque.
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Originally posted by varg View Post
Sorry for any confusion, but I quoted what I specifically meant to address, which is "no torque for the size". 77lbft/L is far from that, it's actually damn good, and the Honda motor compares very favorably with the S14, making similar specific torque but annihilating it in specific power. 77lbft/L is more specific torque than an M20B25, M54B30... LS1 even! Proof that the no torque Honda meme doesn't apply to an F20 at least, because if that Honda motor was 5.7L it would be making more torque than a Camaro.
btw S54 82-84lbft/L ~10% more.....
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Originally posted by digger View Post
that's basically what i said, the S14 makes just about as good VE. I never said the S14 was good I was addressing Wanganstyle comment.
The S14 has an excuse though, it’s from early/mid 80's and hopeless engine management, single cam profile. Compare the stuff from same ERA as F20C. BMW have stuff in the 80’s for numbers
the shape of the power curve matters as well, you can’t look at the peak number and say you can gear it just as well as most drive trains don’t have CVT. If you compare a normalized power curve then you start to be able to compare different engines with a similar peak number.
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Originally posted by varg View Post
S14B20 - 1,990cc - 189bhp/155lbft @6,900rpm/4,900rpm
F20C - 1,997cc - 234bhp/155lbft @8,300rpm/7,500rpm
77.8 vs 77.6lbft/L
No discernible difference (<1%)
S14B23 - 2,302cc - 212bhp/170lbft @6,750rpm/4,600rpm
F22C - 2,157cc - 237bhp/162lbft @7,800rpm/6,500rpm
73.8 vs 75.1lbft/L
Barely discernible difference (1.7%) but if you want to count it, advantage F22C.
In the end, specific torque is about the same between the two
As for RPM, if you select your final drive gearing for the application it doesn't really make a difference, aside from bragging rights maybe.
that's basically what i said, the S14 makes just about as good VE. I never said the S14 was good I was addressing Wanganstyle comment.
The S14 has an excuse though, it’s from early/mid 80's and hopeless engine management, single cam profile. Compare the stuff from same ERA as F20C. BMW have stuff in the 80’s for numbers on their performance stuff
the shape of the power curve matters as well, you can’t look at the peak number and say you can gear it just as well as most drive trains don’t have CVT. If you compare a normalized power curve then you start to be able to compare different engines with a similar peak number.
Last edited by digger; 08-25-2019, 03:47 PM.
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Originally posted by digger View Postno torque for the size
F20C - 1,997cc - 234bhp/155lbft @8,300rpm/7,500rpm
77.8 vs 77.6lbft/L
No discernible difference (<1%)
S14B23 - 2,302cc - 212bhp/170lbft @6,750rpm/4,600rpm
F22C - 2,157cc - 237bhp/162lbft @7,800rpm/6,500rpm
73.8 vs 75.1lbft/L
Barely discernible difference (1.7%) but if you want to count it, advantage F22C.
In the end, specific torque is about the same between the two
As for RPM, if you select your final drive gearing for the application it doesn't really make a difference, aside from bragging rights maybe.
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Originally posted by Wanganstyle View PostIf using that logic you would install A m73b54; would destroy anything at 1500rpm. A Chevy Lsx does work also at low rpm even better than a m73 v12 or any bmw power unit Opinions are like assholes. And the statement was intentionally made to irritate purists Drive a stock s14, drive a stock f20c. The s14 is shit in comparison; and yes itÂ’s because of a decade of modern technology. I made my own m54b28 obd1 alu block single vanos. Because I could
personally I'd want a hp that the chassis can handle comfortably without needing to modify everything yet also not need to be wound up to get any power. The f20 is too gutless to be worth it imo.
The stock s14 in some variants is actually just as efficient as as stock f20c in terms of VE. Honda have always needed more revs the the Europeans to achieve the same power. Even with two cam profiles still has no torque for the size. Sure they can make big power with mods but isn't that part of the point of the swap to put something in there that's alot better
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This thread might as well have been titled "What girl would you choose" - to each their own. You like big booty bitches, get yourself an m30B35. You like chicks with a white girl booty, get yourself an s14. You like a basic bitch, you get a m/s5x. Some of you have the asian fever, so get your 2jz on. :)
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Originally posted by digger View Postwhy rev 9200 when you can get the job done with 6000....Originally posted by Andrew325is View PostWanganstyle, do you mean M52TUb28? Because there is no M54b28 unless of course you made one combing M52TU and M54 bits. “S14 is shit”... that’s a really interesting opinion.
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Wanganstyle, do you mean M52TUb28? Because there is no M54b28 unless of course you made one combing M52TU and M54 bits. “S14 is shit”... that’s a really interesting opinion.
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