Man wounds robber, then shoots him 5 more times, murder or self defense?

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  • brandondan1
    E30 Enthusiast
    • Aug 2006
    • 1091

    #61
    I totally agree with you that we need real proof. But if we're not here to speculate what happened, what's the point of the thread? To make mindless comments like "should have shot him 20 more times!" and whatnot?

    I just wanted a bit more substance..


    91 318is

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    • Ral
      E30 Fanatic
      • Jul 2007
      • 1486

      #62
      Personally, I think the DA is doing the guy a favor. The DA has to appear to come down hard on the guy given the media sensation the situation has created. However, First-Degree murder is premeditated, and the facts do not support a premeditation. (there was 25 seconds between the time he shot the first guy, ran outside to chase the other perpetrator, then came back inside.) So, by overcharging him with something that is clearly not a convictable offense, he may be trying to get this guy off the hook easily while not appearing lenient.
      sigpic89 M3

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      • mrsleeve
        I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
        • Mar 2005
        • 16385

        #63
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        Interesting points, never thought about it that way and you do have some very valid points.

        Still gonna take some fancy lawyering to get him outta this
        Originally posted by Fusion
        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
        William Pitt-

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        • Aptyp
          R3V OG
          • Feb 2008
          • 6584

          #64
          25 seconds? that's it? It takes me that long to decide which soda I want with my Whopper.

          Speculations are so much fun, and some people may feel like 5 shots were too few. That's their opinion. Also note that crazy old man didn't open fire at the guy running away. In 25 second interval he'd still be within bullet range. So obviously, this guy wasn't that insane.

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          • eurohick.
            Advanced Member
            • Nov 2008
            • 126

            #65
            i read this a couple of times and see that the kid he shot was unarmed. The kid who actually pulled the piece got away. im pretty sure thats the main issue.

            ive always had cop friends tell me if you have to shoot someone, you empty the gun. But i never heard, empty your gun, then get your other one and empty that one as well.

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            • brandondan1
              E30 Enthusiast
              • Aug 2006
              • 1091

              #66
              That adds a whole new dynamic if it's true, but it just seems too unlikely. I bet people would still think shooting him 6 times was justified though..

              Originally posted by Aptyp

              Speculations are so much fun, and some people may feel like 5 shots were too few. That's their opinion. Also note that crazy old man didn't open fire at the guy running away. In 25 second interval he'd still be within bullet range. So obviously, this guy wasn't that insane.
              Without speculation/opinion, this thread would reduced down to around 4 posts. Can't single me out for stating mine. You choose to ignore semantics, I don't. Simple as that.
              Last edited by brandondan1; 06-03-2009, 09:48 PM.


              91 318is

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              • Jordan325iC
                E30 Mastermind
                • Aug 2005
                • 1697

                #67
                I didn't read the whole thread, but here are some comments.

                A) The "deterrence" theory of crime works up to a point, but it has generally been shown not to have much of an effect on most felonies (IE violent crime). Increasing punishment or risk has been shown to have no effectiveness in decreasing violent crime. The "jail time doesn't scare robbers, we have to kill them so they'll stop!" argument, though logical, really doesn't play very well in the real world.

                B ) I empathize with the clerk. If somebody comes in and waves a gun at you, they have forfeited their right to life right there. Certainly my first thought would be to kill them both. And he was right to do what he did up to a point. However, being a gun owner means being responsible and in control of yourself. Pulling out another handgun and firing 5 shots into an unconscious kid was not the responsible thing to do. Under the circumstances, it is understandable that he was angry, but he was wrong to fire into a face-down person. He deserves manslaughter.

                '88 325is
                VP UT of Austin Autoholics
                BMWCCA 380364

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                • PaladinReed
                  E30 Mastermind
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 1524

                  #68
                  This is such a hard situation and if you posted your rebuttal in less than 30 minutes of reading it you probably didnt think hard enough. IMO the clerk was justified in his INITIAL response to the duo but lost control in effectively emptying another weapon into the (obviously) incapacitated youth. That was without a doubt a cognitive decision. And an extremely brutal one honestly. The neutrilization of the threat is important no doubt, but seeing a head wound unconcious on the ground and then choosing to (essentially) "finish him off" is twisted. Especially as he was not the one wielding the solitary weapon. It was the mistake of what sounds like two very stupid kids. I just don't know how well the dead kid learned his lesson if you catch my drift...
                  Late model granitesilber 325i convertible FS:
                  http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=293701

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                  • mitch500
                    E30 Enthusiast
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 1092

                    #69
                    ughhh give me my 2 mins of life back from reading that crap.... who cares.
                    1988 e30 alpine white vert 5speed
                    1987 e30 325 eta
                    1983 e28 533
                    2001 x5 4.4l
                    1997 e36 M3 Alpine white 5speed
                    1991 Jeep XJ I6 4.0

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                    • Aptyp
                      R3V OG
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 6584

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Jordan325iC
                      The "deterrence" theory of crime works up to a point, but it has generally been shown not to have much of an effect on most felonies (IE violent crime). Increasing punishment or risk has been shown to have no effectiveness in decreasing violent crime. The "jail time doesn't scare robbers, we have to kill them so they'll stop!" argument, though logical, really doesn't play very well in the real world.
                      That statement is simply not true. Look through entire country and tell me that places with the most guns don't have least violence. Obviously there is crime in heavily populated areas due to proximity, but when people are aware of weapons, they tend to not test their luck. In real world, criminals don't take those kind of chances, otherwise they become ex-criminals real fast.

                      Originally posted by Jordan325iC
                      Pulling out another handgun and firing 5 shots into an unconscious kid was not the responsible thing to do. Under the circumstances, it is understandable that he was angry, but he was wrong to fire into a face-down person.
                      Originally posted by PaladinReed
                      effectively emptying another weapon into the (obviously) incapacitated youth. That was without a doubt a cognitive decision. And an extremely brutal one honestly. The neutrilization of the threat is important no doubt, but seeing a head wound unconcious on the ground and then choosing to (essentially) "finish him off" is twisted. Especially as he was not the one wielding the solitary weapon. It was the mistake of what sounds like two very stupid kids. I just don't know how well the dead kid learned his lesson if you catch my drift...
                      is there more info that emerged? post more articles if so, please.

                      Kid may not have been armed, but he may have pretended to be armed or reached for his pocket. Video would explain a lot, and if it was as brutal as we think, people in OK wouldn't stand up for this guy after seeing it on TV.

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                      • mrsleeve
                        I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 16385

                        #71
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                        thank you
                        Originally posted by Fusion
                        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                        William Pitt-

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                        • 884door
                          Grease Monkey
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 380

                          #72
                          IMO after you have immobilized/eliminated a threat it is wrong to continue shooting them.

                          On the other hand, say that instead the pharmacist killing the robber he shot him once then called 911, the robber spends x amount of time in the hospital to heal, then they go to court and get sentenced to x amount of time in prison. There's a possibility that when the robber gets out of prison he murders the pharmacist for revenge.

                          Pretty much a shitty situation either way.

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                          • brandondan1
                            E30 Enthusiast
                            • Aug 2006
                            • 1091

                            #73
                            Originally posted by 884door
                            IMO after you have immobilized/eliminated a threat it is wrong to continue shooting them.
                            Prepare to be misinterpreted into stating that this was ACTUALLY the case rather than making a rebuttal to those saying "he needed to be shot 20 times, no matter the circumstance." It has been established as the only acceptable answer.


                            91 318is

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                            • z31maniac
                              I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                              • Dec 2007
                              • 17566

                              #74
                              Originally posted by brandondan1
                              no matter the circumstance.
                              That was never said, you incoherent....ahem.

                              We are talking about THIS SPECIFIC CASE, in which the kids were committing ARMED ROBBERY.

                              In this CIRCUMSTANCE, the robbers deserved to die.

                              Quit trying to twist what people say out of context.
                              Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
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                              • z31maniac
                                I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                                • Dec 2007
                                • 17566

                                #75
                                Originally posted by brandondan1
                                That adds a whole new dynamic if it's true, but it just seems too unlikely. I bet people would still think shooting him 6 times was justified though..
                                I believe that is true that kid shot didn't have a gun, I'd have to go back and read the numerous news stories.

                                And BTW guys, the video is up on one of the OKC news web sites along with the story.

                                But brandondan, let's assume the kid didn't have a gun. Are you trying to insinuate that the clerk should have waited around to find out after being threatened with a gun by his cohort?
                                Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
                                Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

                                www.gutenparts.com
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