Hilary plan vs. Obama plan

[Ral]

^^ I would be interested to know how much malpractice insurance is carried by physicians in those other countries you listed, Darrin. (I'm looking right now, so give me some time.) I would bet my M3 (hypothetically) that malpractice insurance is one reason we pay so much for health care in this country. Not the only one, but definitely a big reason.

[z31maniac]

We also rank dead last in preventable mortality among developed nations:

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

How much of this is related to a sedentary lifestyle and terrible diet? Much of the chronic illness in this country is directly related to those two things.

Not that we have a substandard health care system.

[daniel]

if everyone could just never get sick, we would never have these problems.

[johnwoo]

Drug companies are a major contributor to the rising costs of health care. I am sure that many of you know some young woman (usually pretty attractive) that is a drug rep. Any idea how much they make? I personally know 3 reps and wife knows 2 more ... all five make better than 125k/yr with a BS in BS which is to say they are the sharpest tools in the shed.

o how true it is. i've nvr seen an unattractive pharm/surgical sales rep. its so weird to see the companies send female reps for male physicians and male reps for the female physicians.

i know some really good reps that make close to 200k. i like to mess with the reps by asking all the off the wall questions that you can't get the answers from reading the pamphlets and watching them literally crap their pants and resort to what they know best which is bat their eye lashes or flirt.

[eurotrashm20]

The wife and I decided to have her leave her job and come home to watch the kids which put us without insurance. Her employer paid all of the cost of her insurance and 75% of mine and the kids. We began shopping insurance before she left work and were AMAZED to find out that with comparable coverage we don't spend anymore now than the portion we were responsible for when she worked. On some accounts the new insurance is actually a bit better in areas that we use.

Drug companies are a major contributor to the rising costs of health care. I am sure that many of you know some young woman (usually pretty attractive) that is a drug rep. Any idea how much they make? I personally know 3 reps and wife knows 2 more ... all five make better than 125k/yr with a BS in BS which is to say they are the sharpest tools in the shed.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kinda thought thats what I just said

The D's of today in general are a product of the Progressive movement of the post Civil war and reconstruction era. The progressive movement is the complete antithesis of the values and principals this nation was founded upon. This coupled with all the various versions of totalitarianism out there, is why we are on the road we are on. While on paper and from a standing on high point of view the Progressive platform sounds great, but in the real world it fails miserably.

The modern R's are just as bad and have just as much progressive in them as well, I am not into the My party is the only party and the only way. I am saying the the modern R's line up more with how and why this country was founded than the modern D's. Not to say they are all peaches and cream either, I dont blindly support one party or the other I make my own decisions and draw my own conclusions. Some thing I invite you to try rather than blindly swallowing the Koolaid of what ever flavor of day totalitarianism you subscribe to.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

if you go back and look at the Party ideology and platforms they have actually swapped sides almost entirely from their founding intentions.

Beaten.

Political parties change. The Democratic party of 150 years ago (before phones, cars, airplanes, computers, electricity) shares nothing with the Democratic party of today.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

if you go back and look at the Party ideology and platforms they have actually swapped sides almost entirely from their founding intentions.

[Joey Link]

Drug companies spend 10x as much on advertising as they do on R&D.

Where'd you find that fact? (I assume it is a fact, right?)

[johnwoo]

Actually, you didn't. We are the ones with the expensive, inefficient healthcare. Numbers and facts don't lie. We spend an average of $4178 per capita on healthcare costs, while the second most expensive country, Switzerland, spends only $2794 per capita. We spend more than double the median amount of developed nations, yet we don't even have care for every citizen. And you're calling them inefficient? Here's the full report:

i like how you just throw up random stats and facts without understanding the context of the situation. have you looked the the immigration rates and policy to immigrate into switzerland? compare their rates and their policies to the united states and also remember the unaccounted illegals that come to the states. now factor in immigration into our numbers compared to switzerland.

the reason their system works is because their citizens understand the concept of EMERGENCY. they use the ER for emergencies not their own gp clinic.
hmm lets see i am a person without insurance and i go to the er for broken toe (something major but not necessarily an emergency). now i have free healthcare and im going to go to the er for my medical needs, athletic physical my general health check my poison ivy my hang nail my allergies.
how is that savings?

and some1 pointed this out before. if this plan is so grand why the hell is congress exempt???

why is the national hc system good enough for my family but not good enough for obamas?

[Joey Link]

It's funny man, I used to be a die-hard Communist. Not even socialist, I was far past that. I've always been a passionate populist, probably due to growing up poor and seeing firsthand what helped and didn't help. I used to believe that the government could make everything better for everyone as long as we had 'good people' running the show. I didn't grasp the concept of human nature or that even 'good people' aren't exempt from it. I spent countless hours of my life researching, studying empirical facts, looking examples of what I thought was best and what others thought was best, etc. Eventually, luckily, I saw that my thinking was flawed.

I found that most of the actual help came from individuals, the community, churches, businesses, etc. I found that most of the programs that supposedly help such as welfare actually do great damage to those people by taking away their motivation, incentive, and will to better themselves or their lives. They grow complacent with where they are, often living in high crime neighborhoods eating boxed meals, and they're still poor. The people who still have that drive to do better for themselves often sell drugs because it's quick and easy. People usually choose the easier path. This is especially true if they were never raised with the knowledge that they could do better, because often at that point the person or people raising them have lost hope for themselves and they project that on the children. Compound that with high profile people and organizations spouting all this garbage of class warfare and people being 'oppressed', they start to believe it and it gives them an easy excuse as to why they're not doing better. Nobody mentions the theory of personal responsibility, they've been indoctrinated with the thought that the government is there to provide.

That kind of damage is hard to undo, and it can't be done with anything the government can provide.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thats because they have to ration it. Thus less is spent per person.

They pay huge taxes to cover all that care, Like the 17%VAt and the 40+% Income taxes, the 200% fuel taxes, come on think for a second man. Much of those taxes were levied to pay for their heath care systems. And they still have long lines and draconian standards to meet before you can get care.

[CorvallisBMW]

There fixed that for you.

Actually, you didn't. We are the ones with the expensive, inefficient healthcare. Numbers and facts don't lie. We spend an average of $4178 per capita on healthcare costs, while the second most expensive country, Switzerland, spends only $2794 per capita. We spend more than double the median amount of developed nations, yet we don't even have care for every citizen. And you're calling them inefficient? Here's the full report:

dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

For all of your soapboxing about how every other country has slow, inefficient, expensive government-run healthcare, you know precious little about the actual facts.

For instance, we spend 15.4% of our GDP on healthcare costs. Many other countries with 'socialized' healthcare systems spend less than 10% of their GDP:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html

We also rank dead last in preventable mortality among developed nations:

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that overall, or healthcare ranks 37th out of 191 countries. We rank below countries such as Morocco, Dominica, Oman and even Columbia:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

But I'm sure you will have some crazy reason why your bizarre and illegitimate claims are still valid.

I bet you and Darrin have terrific debates!

yes, yes we do :)

[StereoInstaller1]

Walmart has done more to help the poor than the government EVER has, and they've done it through competition.

Right thurr, bubba.

Arguments like yours are the main reason I have never voted. I see the logic on both sides and agree with both.

If I cannot make my own mind up clearly, my vote is pointless.

You are absolutely right about human nature and things that look good on paper. That is exactly why communism does not work.

I bet you and Darrin have terrific debates!

Luke

[mrsleeve]

Little food for thought since now we have brought "the poor" in this.

The "Poor" Have been voting for the D's for 60+ years and guess what they are still poor.


The D's dont want to help the poor, they need them to keep their seat of power. And all sides but the D's in particular, pander to this demographic by telling them dont worry if you cant afford a house we make sure you have a place to live and food to eat, and some spending money. Oh and yeah if you need to see the doc you can do that too. That has created generation after generation of the entitlement class that is just leaching off the generosity of others. The more they promise to this rising demographic the more Votes they get to further keep their place in power and push their agenda.

Now they want even more control and to continue with the class warfare and bring all of us down to the same level other than the Ultra rich. The Middle class is what this country was built on and by, this is all out attack on all of us to put us under the thumb of the elected elite. DO you think any elected official is going to be on this "new Govt" plan???????????? FUCK NO THEY aren't they get to keep their uber care for life, they have exempted them selves form it. If its not good enough for congress then its not good enough for the rest of us.


Ok I am getting too far onto my soap box I will shut up now.


Oh and last thing if the GOVT run socialist heath care is really so great. Why is it that the Prime minster of Italy showe up over here in the USA at the Cleavland Clinic to get his heart surgery done
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