Computer thread!!!

[Wschnitz]

Installing 7 and then 10 again is a workaround at best, for a year. Chances are Windows 10 users will be around for quite a bit longer, so my statement stills stands.

My GPU doesn't support DX12. Still gaming on DX9.

Also people don't buy Apple because of hardware or a better screen. If you care about hardware specs obviously you'll go elsewhere. You're buying it because OSX.

Again, apart from it the clear privacy issues that come with it, there isn't much reason to upgrade for anyone, you still have the same problems as the OS's before it. Still doesn't work out of the box. It's not a big deal to me but I'm thinking in terms of the mast majority of users who call "their friend who knows about computers" whenever something doesn't work.

I like how you to continue to be wrong in most of what you say, and find it hilarious you think apple doesnt collect all your info, they probably dont sell it off as much, but you better bet they collect it and use it to push certain apps/hardware/etc.

[Wschnitz]

I'm probably going to upgrade my laptop to 10.

I really want a macbook pro just for the screen. My current laptop's screen is a pile of shit and I like playing with photos on the go.

I feel you man, Its why ive entertained the idea of looking for a used Razer or used zenbook/ROG laptop. All the new ASUS have 1440p+ screens, usually IPS with higher refresh rates, and although I hate their customer support, their hardware is usually pretty baller.

[Schnitzer318is]

^I am also waiting to upgrade from 7 64bit to 10. I have 6 machines (more if you include NAS server) here and I don't want to risk breaking something that works so well atm.

I don't remember if the 960 supports DX12 (which would be nice for sure), but the other stuff in 10 just doesn't appeal to me (yet) until the retail product has been tested. Wondering why Microsoft (other than to save money) fired all of their testing department before the release of 10.

Plus I'd be worried some of the Cisco VPN/VOIP software I run (for work at home stuff) wouldn't jive with the Windows 7 boxes at work.

[z31maniac]

Best windows 10 laptop that will allow me to run to external monitor (along with something different on the laptop screen) for ~1000.

A dock would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.

[TurboJake]

Installing 7 and then 10 again is a workaround at best, for a year. Chances are Windows 10 users will be around for quite a bit longer, so my statement stills stands.

Once you upgrade to 10, a unique key is generated. It can be recovered (Either by digging into the registry, or by using Magic Jelly bean), and kept forever. Clean install away using a downloaded ISO.

No need to install 7 and upgrade, I just forgot to mention this option.

Nowhere in the windows 10 EULA does it state that the data recovered is to be sold off, or that it even may be. It clearly states that it is there to improve performance, spell check, and other primary functions.
BUT, it's still a concern at this time. Not nearly to the proportions you're making it to be though.

Best windows 10 laptop that will allow me to run to external monitor (along with something different on the laptop screen) for ~1000.

A dock would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.

That's really subjective. Take what matters most to you, and go from there. Because with that, anything with a discrete graphics card will work great but will suffer battery life, but if you aren't playing games, you don't necessarily need it.

I don't remember if the 960 supports DX12 (which would be nice for sure)

Yep! All the way back to Fermi

[pandaboo911]

Ok you can reinstall windows with a workaround. It's not directly supported by microsoft. It's a hack. That was my point.

I like how you to continue to be wrong in most of what you say, and find it hilarious you think apple doesnt collect all your info, they probably dont sell it off as much, but you better bet they collect it and use it to push certain apps/hardware/etc.

Someone hasn't learned how to properly debate a topic. Saying someone is mostly wrong is like saying nothing at all.

It also helps to read a company's privacy policy before you debate facts. It's clear in black and white here. This is straight off the company websites, respectively.
Apple:

"One very small part of our business does serve advertisers, and that’s iAd. We built an advertising network because some app developers depend on that business model, and we want to support them as well as a free iTunes Radio service. iAd sticks to the same privacy policy that applies to every other Apple product. It doesn’t get data from Health and HomeKit, Maps, Siri, iMessage, your call history, or any iCloud service like Contacts or Mail, and you can always just opt out altogether."

Microsoft: :

"Data We Collect

Microsoft collects many kinds of information in a variety of ways to operate effectively and provide you the best products, services and experiences. We may combine this data with information that is linked to your user ID, such as information associated with your Microsoft account.

When you acquire, install and use the Program software and services, Microsoft collects information about your use of the software and services as well as about the devices and networks on which they operate. Examples of data we may collect include your name, email address, preferences and interests; location, browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; voice, text and writing input; and application usage. For example, when you:

install or use Program software and services, we may collect information about your device and applications and use it for purposes such as determining or improving compatibility (e.g., to help devices and apps work together),

when you use voice input features like speech-to-text, we may collect voice information and use it for purposes such as improving speech processing (e.g., to help the service better translate speech into text),

when you open a file, we may collect information about the file, the application used to open the file, and how long it takes to use it for purposes such as improving performance (e.g., to help retrieve documents more quickly), or

when you input text, handwrite notes, or ink comments, we may collect samples of your input to improve these input features, (e.g., to help improve the accuracy of autocomplete and spellcheck).
The Program software and services may contain internet-enabled features and social functionality. When these features are used, they transmit certain standard computer information ("Standard Computer Data") to Microsoft. Standard Computer Data may include information about your computing environment such as IP address, network status, operating conditions and information about devices and software used with the Program software and services.

The Program software and services contain internet-enabled features that transmit performance or usage information to Microsoft (“Experience Data”). Experience Data may include information about performance and reliability, such as how quickly the software and services respond when you click a button or how many problems you experience with a given software or service. Experience Data may also include information about your use of software and services, such as the features used most often or how frequently you launch programs. Experience Data may be collected through the use of cookies or similar technologies; learn more below.

Microsoft automatically collects data from the devices you use with the Program software and services. This may include information about all aspects of the Program software and services, such as device performance, user interface interactions, and feature and application usage, including third party applications."

People don't make up the privacy concerns. I've highlighted the key differences for you.

[Wschnitz]

And you can turn it all off too, I didn't feel I needed to add anything to debate, TurboJake more then covered everything you had wrong.

I get it, your an apple fanboi, if you were doing it right you would build a PC and do dualboot and get the best of both worlds.

Once I decide to not be lazy ill be doing that myself, although probably with linux instead of OSX.

[pandaboo911]

Right, no need to continue this conversation..

[TurboJake]

someone hasn't learned how to properly debate a topic. Saying someone is mostly wrong is like saying nothing at all.

It also helps to read a company's privacy policy before you debate facts. It's clear in black and white here. This is straight off the company websites, respectively.
Apple:

4. Consent to use of data.
(a) diagnostic and usage data. If you opt in to diagnostic and usage collection, you agree that apple and
its subsidiaries and agents may collect, maintain, process and use diagnostic, technical, usage and
related information (“diagnostic and usage data”), including but not limited to unique system or
hardware identifiers, information about your ios device, computer, system and application software, and
peripherals, that is gathered periodically to provide and improve apple’s products and services, facilitate
the provision of software updates, product support and other services to you (if any) related to the ios
software, and to verify compliance with the terms of this license. Apple may use this information, as
long as it is collected in a form that does not personally identify you, for the purposes described above.
If you have opted in and have location services turned on, the location of your device may also be sent
to help apple analyze wireless or cellular performance issues (e.g. The strength or weakness of a cellular
signal in a particular location). To enable apple’s partners, third party developers and content providers
to improve their software, hardware, courses, materials, and services designed for use with apple
products, apple may also provide any such party with a subset of diagnostic and usage data that is
relevant to that party’s software, hardware, courses, materials and/or services, as long as the diagnostic
and usage data is in a form that does not personally identify you.
(b) location data. Apple and its partners, licensees and third party developers may provide certain
services through your ios device that rely upon location information. To provide and improve these
services, where available, apple and its partners, licensees and third party developers may transmit,
collect, maintain, process and use your location data, including the real-time geographic location of your
ios device, road travel speed information, location search queries, and location of where you purchase
and launch applications. The location data and queries collected by apple are collected in a form that
does not personally identify you and may be used by apple and its partners, licensees and third party
developers to provide and improve location-based products and services. By using any location-based
services on your ios device, you agree and consent to apple's and its partners', licensees' and
third party developers’ transmission, collection, maintenance, processing and use of your location
data and queries to provide and improve such products and services. You may withdraw this
consent at any time by going to the location services setting on your ios device and either turning off
the global location services setting or turning off the individual location settings of each location-aware
item on your ios device. When using third party applications or services on the ios device that use or
provide location data, you are subject to and should review such third party's terms and privacy policy
on use of location data by such third party applications or services.
(c) siri and dictation. If your ios device supports siri and dictation, these features may allow you to
make requests, give commands and dictate text to your device using your voice. When you use siri or
dictation, the things you say will be recorded and sent to apple in order to convert what you say into
text and to process your requests. Your device will also send apple other information, such as your
name and nickname; the names, nicknames, and relationship with you (e.g., “my dad”) of your address
book contacts; song names in your collection, and homekit-enabled devices in your home (e.g., “living
room lights”) (collectively, your “user data”). All of this data is used to help siri and dictation understand
you better and recognize what you say. It is not linked to other data that apple may have from your use
of other apple services. By using siri or dictation, you agree and consent to apple’s and its
subsidiaries’ and agents’ transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of this
information, including your voice input and user data, to provide and improve siri, dictation, and
dictation functionality in other apple products and services.
If you have location services turned on, the location of your ios device at the time you make a request
to siri may also be sent to apple to help siri improve the accuracy of its response to your location-based
requests. You may disable the location-based functionality of siri by going to the location services
setting on your ios device and turning off the individual location setting for siri.
Siri can allow you to interact with your ios device without needing to unlock it. If you have enabled a
passcode on your ios device and would like to prevent siri from being used from the lock screen, you
can tap settings, tap general, tap passcode lock and turn the siri option to “off”.
You can also turn off siri and dictation altogether at any time. To do so, open settings, tap general, tap
siri, and slide the siri switch to “off”.
(d) facetime; wi-fi calling; imessage. In order to set up and use the facetime calling feature
(“facetime”), wi-fi calling feature (“wi-fi calling”) or the messaging feature (“imessage”) of the ios
software, certain unique identifiers for your ios device and account are needed. These unique identifiers
may include your email address(es), the apple id information you provide, a hardware identifier for your
ios device, and your iphone’s telephone number. By using the ios software, you agree that apple
may transmit, collect, maintain, process and use these identifiers for the purpose of providing and
improving the facetime, wi-fi calling and imessage features. You understand that your iphone’s
telephone number will be displayed to the other party (even if you have a blocked number) or, in the case
of facetime and imessage, your email address will be shown, depending on what setting you choose.
To facilitate delivery of your imessages and to enable you to maintain conversations across your devices,
apple may hold your imessages in encrypted form for a limited period of time. If your message cannot
be sent as an imessage, your message may be sent as an sms or mms message, for which carrier
messaging rates may apply.
You may turn off facetime by going to the facetime setting on your ios device or by going to the
restrictions setting and enabling the facetime restriction. You may also restrict facetime to wi-fi only,
by going to the facetime setting and sliding the “use cellular data” switch to “off”. You may turn off
wi-fi calling by going to the wi-fi calling setting on your ios device or by turning off wifi. Similarly,
you may turn off imessage by going to the messages setting on your ios device.
(e) continuity. In order to set up and use certain continuity features of the ios software (handoff, iphone
cellular calls, sms relay), certain unique identifiers for your ios device and account are needed. These
unique identifiers may include your email address(es), the apple id information you provide, a hardware
identifier for your ios devices, and your iphone’s telephone number. By using the ios software, you
agree that apple may transmit, collect, maintain, process and use these identifiers for the purpose
of providing and improving the continuity features. To facilitate delivery of your sms and mms
messages and to enable you to maintain conversations across your devices, apple may hold your
messages in encrypted form for a limited period of time. You may turn off handoff by going to the
handoff & suggested apps setting on your ios device. If you no longer wish to receive sms or mms
messages on a particular device you can go to the messages setting, tap send and receive and then
choose the phone number from which you no longer wish to receive messages. If you no longer wish to
make calls from or receive calls to your other devices, go to the facetime setting on your iphone and
disable iphone cellular calls, or go to the same setting on your other devices to disable the functionality
on that device.
(f) maps. The maps service and features of the ios software (“maps”), including map data coverage,
may vary by region. When you use any location-based features within maps, such as turn-by-turn
navigation, traffic and local search, various location-related and usage information may be sent to apple,
including the real-time geographic location of your ios device, in order to process your request and help
improve maps. Such location and usage data is collected by apple in a form that does not personally
identify you. By using maps, you agree and consent to apple’s and its subsidiaries’ and agents’
transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of this information, to provide and
improve the maps features and service, and other apple products and services. You may disable
the location-based functionality of maps by going to the location services setting on your ios device
and turning off the individual location setting for maps. Certain maps features will however be
unavailable if you disable the location services setting, such as turn-by-turn navigation.
(g) interest-based advertising from iad. Apple may provide mobile, interest-based advertising to you. If
you do not want to receive relevant ads on your ios device, you can opt out by going to the limit ad
tracking setting on your ios device. If you opt out, you will continue to receive the same number of
mobile ads, but they may be less relevant because they will not be based on your interests. You may still
see ads related to the content on a web page or in an application or based on other non-personal
information.
(h) spotlight; spotlight suggestions in safari. When you use spotlight or spotlight suggestions in safari,
your search queries, the spotlight suggestions you select, and related usage data will be sent to apple.
When using spotlight, search results found on your device will not be sent to apple. If you have location
services turned on, when you make a search query to spotlight the location of your ios device at that
time will be sent to apple. Location, search queries, and usage information sent to apple will be used by
apple only to make spotlight suggestions more relevant and to improve other apple products and
services. By using spotlight or spotlight suggestions in safari, you agree and consent to apple’s
and its subsidiaries’ and agents’ transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of
this information to make spotlight suggestions more relevant and to improve other apple
products and services.
If you do not want your spotlight search queries and spotlight suggestions usage data sent to apple,
you can turn off spotlight suggestions. To do so, open settings, tap general, tap spotlight search and
deselect spotlight suggestions. If you turn off spotlight suggestions, spotlight will search the contents
of only your device. Similarly, if you do not want your safari search queries and spotlight suggestions
usage data sent to apple, you can change your privacy settings for safari at any time. To do so, open
settings, tap safari, scroll down to privacy & security and choose the options you wish to enable or
disable.
You can turn off location services for spotlight suggestions. To do so, open settings, tap privacy, tap
location services, tap system services, and slide the spotlight suggestions switch to “off”. If you turn
off location services on your device, your precise location will not be sent to apple. To deliver relevant
search suggestions, apple may use the ip address of your internet connection to approximate your
location by matching it to a geographic region.
(i) ibooks; podcasts. If you choose to use the sync feature of the ibooks and podcasts apps to
synchronize your bookmarks, notes, collections and podcast subscription data across your ios devices
and computers, you acknowledge that such data will be sent to apple and stored in conjunction with the
apple id you use for the ibooks store or itunes store, in order to sync such data to your other devices
and computers that are authorized to access content through that apple id. You can turn off syncing at
any time by going to settings and changing the syncing options for the ibooks and podcasts apps,
respectively.
(j) privacy policy. At all times your information will be treated in accordance with apple’s privacy policy,
which is incorporated by reference into this license and can be viewed at: http://www.apple.com/legal/
privacy/.

people don't make up the privacy concerns. I've highlighted the key differences for you.

ftfy
Source: http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iOS81.pdf


HOWEVER! Unlike the Microsoft EULA, this clearly states that you can turn it all off. You CAN turn it off in 10, but it doesn't say how or where. Could've been implemented better.

But more importantly, you ended your highlights of the Microsoft ones poorly. You're emphasizing what they do, and not why.

ALSO

I not once compared MS to Apple, saying either was good or bad. They have their place, they both work, but the most important bit of all is that they both have access to your data if you use the convenient features. Neither state that it's sold (Or even imply that it will be), and that both allow you to opt out. Use what OS you want to use. Either is just fine! Use what you want! I'm just clearing the air of the misconceptions that you were stating.

[pandaboo911]

Interestingly, also it clearly reiterates multiple times that none of the data "personally identifies you"

Whatever, despite my best efforts to not turn this into an Apple vs Microsoft debate, which it's obviously become, my lack of motivation to install windows 10 still stands.

Sadly Microsoft doesn't clearly say what the data is used for, it does offer some suggestions though.

[TurboJake]

Sadly Microsoft doesn't clearly say what the data is used for.

Yes, it really does. The data collected is about what you're opening. Not within. Or about the devices and peripherals you're using, not the data within. How long it takes to open it. What program you are using to open it. It provides them with info like "Oh hey, 17% of our windows users open-office to open word documets, why are we losing that market share?". It's all in the very thing you handpicked highlights from.

It's a very useful tool and can provide very competitive markets, but don't get me wrong, it very much can be misused.


The only reason why all of it is a privacy concern is because it clearly states that any data collected may be linked to a unique user ID, with information attached to your microsoft account. Pinpointing specifically your account with user data, instead of being completely anon.

Yes, this is clearly a big concern. That's the big deal, and it's getting completely glossed over and ignored. I still expect all of it to be cleared up pretty soon from MS themselves, they listen after backlash (lending Xbone games anyone?). At this point in time, it's best to not attach your windows 10 to your microsoft account. As stated earlier, if you're concerned about it leave cortana off and don't use microsoft app store.

The whole windows 10 privacy thing is typical media pitchforking, getting blown completely out of proportion. But it is a good thing it's happening. Forces them to be accountable and revise.

[Schnitzer318is]

The whole windows 10 privacy thing is typical media pitchforking, getting blown completely out of proportion. But it is a good thing it's happening. Forces them to be accountable and revise.

Agreed, and is one of the reasons I am waiting to upgrade. I want the SP1 Windows 10, not the initial retail release. ;)

[kickinindian]

Agreed, and is one of the reasons I am waiting to upgrade. I want the SP1 Windows 10, not the initial retail release. ;)

thats when ill probably upgrade too

[Wschnitz]

They dont really do "sp" packs anymore, just regular updates. Ive installed it, and went through and disabled most if not all the data collections, even disabling the included keylogger via command prompt.

[z31maniac]

this time. Not nearly to the proportions you're making it to be though.


That's really subjective. Take what matters most to you, and go from there. Because with that, anything with a discrete graphics card will work great but will suffer battery life, but if you aren't playing games, you don't necessarily need it.

I want to be able to run things like AutoCAD and Photoshop/Capture, etc. Battery life isn't a concern, when doing "work" it would be plugged in or on a dock. Also should have said 2 external monitors not just 1.

When it's not on the dock, would just be dicking around on the web/youtube/bookface/etc.