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    #31
    10%, 30% - whatever. The point is while gasoline has more energy in it, most of it is wasted. There's also that whole pollution thing..

    Battery tech is still improving - we're only in the early days of it being wide spread and with significant capital behind R&D. The cost per kwh, the energy density, the weight, the source of materials - have all improved by orders of magnitude in the last 10 years. An ICE car gets what, 5% better fuel economy? With design that is an order of magnitude more complicated than it was 10 years ago?

    ICE vehicles are basically maxed out - you're *never* going to see a doubling of efficiency from where they are now. We know what the theoretical maximum efficiency of ICE is, and we're pretty much there already - more R&D isn't going to overcome that, and it becomes increasingly more costly for each additional percent. We're already seeing a shift of more and more R&D going to EVs, and less and less going to ICE - that's just a fact. It's only a matter of time when it will be overtaken.

    That's not even getting into the fact that an EV requires an order of magnitude less parts than an ICE car does. Electric motors are extremely simple and reliable with few moving parts. You only need one, or at most, two gears in the transmission. No exhaust. no fuel system. no radiator. no emissions equipment. We're only maybe 5 years from cost parity or better.

    You're making assumptions about what an EV truck will ever be able to do, when none have actually been released yet, and there will be many choices in the next 10 years. We also do not know how much better they will get after the first models, but my money is they will reach a point where nobody will want an ICE truck because they will be less efficient, less powerful, and cost more to run. There seems to be enough people working on electric semis too - where all that really matters is cost per mile. if they can beat ICE, they will succeed.

    I mean, you can argue against it all you want and say it will never happen and ICE will be around forever, EVs will never be more than 2% of the market, etc. I'm just saying, the naysayers have been wrong since Tesla went public more than a decade ago. I don't see them suddenly being right going forward. They forced the entire industry to think about electrification, there's a reason that the big automakers are investing 10s of billions to build new factories and models because they see the writing on the wall too. They aren't doing it on a whim.
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      #32
      Originally posted by nando View Post

      people think solar only works in the south, but it's actually becoming really common here in the PNW. "but it rains all year" - yeah not really, plus in the summer we have a lot of hours of daylight (peak summer solstice is like 18 hours). Imagine somewhere like Alaska where in the summer, the sun is basically up 24 hours a day. You just need a backup for the winter months when it's always dark.
      Solar panels still produce power in diffused light, it's when water falls from the sky that they stop entirely. They usually produce the same voltage as when in direct sunlight but the amperage is far less so power would be affected. Solar panels will make financial sense anywhere electricity rates are higher than .15-.18 cents per kWh and there is annual net energy metering available from the local utility.
      It would be great if they would start making more of them here in the US so we could get some mfg jobs even if a lot of the work is robotic.

      I would like to think that an electric truck with all that low end torque is coming that won't look lame for the crew could roll in. Perhaps an electric hovercraft because traffic is starting to get bad again?



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        #33
        Another thing worth looking at is fuel costs for large 4x4 vehicles. I know this well. I substituted a Tesla Model X for say a Rivian using fueleconomy.gov's comparison tool. It's there as a stand in, not so much exact numbers.

        Brand new large 4x4's, one being Diesel and one being Gas from Ford and Chevy. Yes, range is more with gas by a margin and diesel wins by a larger margin.


        Also, my LX470. It's on larger tires, and I don't get 13mpgs. I don't calculate it's MPGS... It's not efficient, I love it, but the fuel costs can't be disregarded especially over time.

        Current low gas prices means I'm at around $50 a week. When gas prices are higher, it's closer to $75 a week. I have a very short commute and don't take long trips terribly often, but when I do, it does suck down the gas.

        Current spend is about what it says, $2500 a year, but historically it's closer to $3600 a year or more honestly.

        Using those amounts, calculated x5 years... That's nearly $20k in gas, plus maintenance, and she's the best there is when it comes to that.

        New trucks cost an insane amount to register in Arizona and many states. Every year it can be $1500+ it will slowly go down each year, but generally it's very expensive.

        I'm not sure if this will carry over for electric trucks, but electric vehicles aren't much to register.

        All I'm trying to do is keep an open mind, and yeah I do like the idea of a Rivian obviously, but the fuel savings and being my main do-it-all vehicle does intrigue me.




        Even new trucks gas or diesel, you start to do the same calculations and it adds up.














        -------------------------------------------------------------------


        Bed Length



        This was posted to their instagram. Bed length on the R1T, that's good for me. Most people are not using their trucks every single weekend to transport a stack of 4x8 sheets of plywood. Honestly, if 1-3 times a year I need to use a trailer to move something large, that isn't a big deal. The bed size realistically will be perfect for all of my projects and needs.




        -------------------------------------------------------------------


        My Dream, with a quick and dirty photoshop.

        I know, going all scene with a wedge shaped roof top tent makes me the enemy, the hipster, etc etc etc. I'm poking fun at myself with this quick 'shop.

        I don't care, this thing would suit my needs 100% as a do-it-all. Really. Sure, I don't know any of the real capabilities or numbers for this thing, but instead of awaiting with disdain, I await with hope.

        Plug it in at night, eventually have a solar array at home, and it is always ready to go to the store or head off road and enjoy time away from civilization.


        Last edited by DEV0 E30; 08-25-2020, 12:23 PM.
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          #34
          Our X5 usually gets less than 10mpg. It gets like 13, on a good day, on the freeway. driving that thing to the mountains every week to ski or whatever was costing me a fortune last year, I think I spent $500 on gas in December alone. Plus, the POS is always broken in one way or another (BMW V8s, stay away!). I can't wait to be rid of it but the Cybertruck isn't out for a while. ;)
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            #35
            Those vehicles listed above are disgustingly wasteful as any type of regular transportation. However, I do wonder about real world range with E trucks on the highway, as the EPA numbers don't really reflect real speeds or users. If it becomes a case of you have to go at a reasonable speed to extract the range from an E truck, then it would seem more prudent to just get a basic 6 cylinder model in the first place.

            As far as I can tell, the largest benefit, especially over diesels, will be lower operating costs, especially when it comes to routine maintenance.

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              #36
              It depends. Cars or trucks where they just stuck batteries and electric motors will not be efficient because their whole shape is designed around an ICE engine. an EV truck could be designed with aerodynamics in mind, with a smooth bottom and without the gigantic ridiculous grille. This is borne out with the many models that have been built on ICE platforms so far - they always come up far short of cars designed from the ground up as an EV, such as Tesla.

              And anyway, so far the EPA range tests are most reflective of real world results than any other ones - there's always going to be leadfoots who get half the range (or MPG), or people that claim to get double the official rating. The point is to have a consistent benchmark so you can test the relative efficiency of different vehicles, and it's pretty obvious that an EV is far more efficient, even if the range could be a bit better.

              I know they do wind tunnel testing on new trucks and they technically have a lower CD than say, the E30. But what kills them (and all modern gigantic POS SUVs/Crossovers) is they have a HUGE frontal area. So when you multiply that smaller CD by the gigantic snoz, they end up losing efficiency overall to something that's essentially brick shaped but far smaller..
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                #37
                I'm not an expert on battery tech; I've read just enough to know how much I don't know. When I say I've been hearing unfounded hype from techies for years I mean it. I read research as it pertains to my interest in UAS and micro applications in particular, I use the products. I subjectively have no interest in EVs because of their lack of what I find fun and their current limitations, but it doesn't bias me when it comes to the numbers. Math is math.

                Originally posted by nando View Post
                The cost per kwh, the energy density, the weight, the source of materials - have all improved by orders of magnitude in the last 10 years.
                No orders of magnitude, the metric which has seen the closest to that is cost. At the widespread introduction of the type in 1991 at we saw ~150Wh/kg, today's Tesla 2170 cell possesses ~250Wh/kg. Cost has fallen off at a far higher rate, which is more encouraging but was inevitable as the Li-ion battery proliferated the market; production methods are optimized and economies of scale applied. Specific capacity/energy density are not the only limitations advancing EV tech faces. Chemical degradation, accelerated by heat, continues to be a major limitation in EV performance and practicality, especially as high C charging is of particular interest with vehicles. It remains a factor that the faster you charge your batteries the worse they will fare in the long run. This is compounded by the fact that the most energy dense configurations and chemistries are not those that are best suited for high discharge rates, so a compromise must be struck between the battery's current limitations and its capacity.

                https://link.springer.com/content/pd...4445-4%2F1.pdf
                https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...2a9dbb902c397d
                https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D1/core-reader
                https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...ikhaylik_0.pdf
                https://insideevs.com/news/342679/te...model-s-p100d/
                https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ies_and_beyond

                https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...657?via%3Dihub
                https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...adfm.201805978

                (edit)
                Put an AWD full size SUV with a 400mi nominal range and a 6 second 0-60 time on the market and I'm game to have that instead of that Cummins swapped suburban I've been wanting.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by varg; 08-25-2020, 08:00 PM.

                IG @turbovarg
                '91 318is, M20 turbo
                [CoTM: 4-18]
                '94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust
                - updated 3-17

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by roguetoaster View Post
                  Those vehicles listed above are disgustingly wasteful as any type of regular transportation. However, I do wonder about real world range with E trucks on the highway, as the EPA numbers don't really reflect real speeds or users. If it becomes a case of you have to go at a reasonable speed to extract the range from an E truck, then it would seem more prudent to just get a basic 6 cylinder model in the first place.

                  As far as I can tell, the largest benefit, especially over diesels, will be lower operating costs, especially when it comes to routine maintenance.
                  You're right, newer diesels can be extremely costly when it comes to maintenance. For a few months I tried to make sense of keeping a 335D as my economical, fun, sedan. I threw a lot of money at it, and it just wasn't worth keeping. Got rid of it as fast as I could. I'm completely turned off by newer BMWs.

                  Again, you're right. Those trucks are wasteful, but that doesn't stop people from buying them. A top of the line 4x4 truck is what a lot of people want. Often using them as their main or only transportation. They rationalize.
                  I didn't include a Raptor in the MPG comparisons before but that would be closer I think to the Rivian as far as abilities and niche market. Do you know how many Raptors I see every single day? A lot.
                  I checked Fuelly and other sites, they should get 13/14, most reporting around 13MPGs. The new v6 is more economical, but I know people with them that have tuned them and with a lift and larger tires, they don't get what they should, also how they drive. Have a good friend who realistically gets 9-10 MPGs. Again, just throwing the Tesla in there as a somewhat comparison below.

                  Thing is, I have done the math to consider an economy car that gets me to and from work, but even if I figure in the costs I don't have the garage space.
                  I've come to realize I don't want another motorcycle and I wouldn't ever want another human being in a 20 year old Civic if it's meant to be my economical car.
                  The LX aside from being horrible on gas is a great vehicle, safe and does what I want.
                  Eventually when there is a kid in the picture, it would be nice to have that same ability, utility, and not spend every 200 miles putting $75-$100 worth of gas in it.
                  I'm rationalizing myself but also trying to be logical, my dream vehicle is the Rivian.

                  ​



                  Originally posted by varg View Post
                  (edit) Put an AWD full size SUV with a 400mi nominal range and a 6 second 0-60 time on the market and I'm game to have that instead of that Cummins swapped suburban I've been wanting.
                  That's exactly what Rivian is claiming they have with their truck and SUV. I hope they deliver.
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                    #39
                    In other news that is not Rivian, because y'all are probably sick of me talking about it:


                    Opinion pieces from Jalopnik....

                    Still not sure how Bollinger is going to make it: https://jalopnik.com/i-hope-bollinge...off-1844846065

                    Or Lordstown:
                    https://jalopnik.com/lordstown-motor...elt-1844831227

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                      #40
                      I'm not sure how any new auto producers make it with how expensive it is to get a vehicle certified and put it on market, Tesla being a notable exception because it started off well funded. I expect the costs lower for EVs because of less EPA interference. If so, how long until the EPA wants its pound of flesh from EV producers as well and makes them do all sorts of official testing, certification and control of the undoubtedly large amounts of pollution involved in battery production?

                      IG @turbovarg
                      '91 318is, M20 turbo
                      [CoTM: 4-18]
                      '94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust
                      - updated 3-17

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Oil industry here... there's no way the net effect of battery production even comes close to the amount of pollution that comes from the extraction, refinement, and use of fossil fuels. That's a false argument.
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                          #42
                          Originally posted by varg View Post
                          I'm not sure how any new auto producers make it with how expensive it is to get a vehicle certified and put it on market, Tesla being a notable exception because it started off well funded.
                          As the token Rivian fanboy, have you seen how much they have behind them from Ford, Amazon, and other large companies?

                          https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckta.../#835f88b182dd

                          https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...d&cmpId=google


                          Something we didn't add into the cost of one of these new electric trucks is the Federal and State Electric Vehicle rebates. I've seen the $7,500 number thrown around for them. It may be that, more or less, but that brings the "well-equipped R1T" $69k down some to be very equal to prices for top of the line vehicles posted on the other page.
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                            #43
                            Originally posted by nando View Post
                            Oil industry here... there's no way the net effect of battery production even comes close to the amount of pollution that comes from the extraction, refinement, and use of fossil fuels. That's a false argument.
                            This is something people don't take into consideration.



                            Hummer Release is in like 8 hours, but pictures "leaked":

                            https://jalopnik.com/2022-hummer-ev-...e-a-1845424020

                            Look, there's more pictures/renders of it than Lebron finally!






                            I mean, I knew it was basically gonna be that shape, but that C-pillar is like Ridgeline, but worse. I understand that it can't be straight down, as I'm sure that helps somehow with aero and drag but... eh.


                            I prefer the Rivian still (duh). They've been fun to watch on Long Way Up. Rivian developed a way to charge the E-Harley bikes for Charley and Ewan from the R1Ts, only a few episodes in. Neat.
                            Last edited by DEV0 E30; 10-20-2020, 09:06 AM.
                            Project Thread | Instagram | Phoenix, Arizona Events Thread

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                              #44
                              Well, I don't love it, but if it replaces even some of the coal-rolling Bro-trucks I see every day around here, then it will be a success.

                              Funny though, this thing probably would not even exist if not for the Cybertruck. I also think it's funny how much money they are spending on advertising the "launch" - while all Tesla had to do is break a window. :p

                              Now they're touting that they will beat Tesla to market. Great! Proof that Tesla's goal of accelerating the change away from ICE has been successful, even if the incumbent manufacturers are still slow-walking the transition.
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                                #45
                                Looks a lot better than the cybertruck. Kinda reminds me of the H3T which I didn't find too offensive to look at. Not like the H2. Here comes the actual improvement of EVs, it'll be nice to see them mature.

                                Originally posted by nando View Post
                                Oil industry here... there's no way the net effect of battery production even comes close to the amount of pollution that comes from the extraction, refinement, and use of fossil fuels. That's a false argument.
                                "not as much" has absolutely no bearing on whether it is enough to spur regulators on when they're forced to justify their existence when oil use declines. Plus I never claimed it comes close to fossil fuels

                                IG @turbovarg
                                '91 318is, M20 turbo
                                [CoTM: 4-18]
                                '94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust
                                - updated 3-17

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