When CCW saves peoples lives thread.

[ramielm]

A friend visited Saudi Arabia and was surprised at how careless people are with their things. He said people would leave their luggage at the airport, go eat, use the restroom, go have a smoke, talk, and then a hour later go back and grab their luggage.

That kind of shit would never happen here because (a) you can't leave luggage unattended and (b) it would probably get stolen.

But the point I'm trying to make is that people are so lax in countries like Saudi Arabia because if you get caught stealing, you get your hands chopped off. People are scared to break the law.

The laws in America aren't severe enough. Some drunk driver killed my friend back in highschool. He was wasted driving fast on the wrong side of the freeway and hit him head on. It's been about 7 years and guess what, he's about to get out.

The problem isn't with CCW's etc..The problem is that the American judicial system is a joke, we need harsher laws. I don't necessarily agree with cutting off hands, imagine if you were wrongly convicted and you lose your hands; but we need harsher laws, to really make people think twice before robbing a store, drinking and driving, rape, murder, etc...

BTW, guns are prevalent in American society, there is no making them go away; I think banning people from owning guns gives an unfair advantage to the criminals. Imagine if the people in the Colorado Movie theater massacre were armed, do you think that asshole would be able to kill 50+ people..I don't. Same concept goes with Columbine, Ohio State, etc.

[Kershaw]

not a ccw, but it fits in this thread

http://news.cincinnati.com/VideoNetwork/1822997437001/92-Year-Old-Shoots-and-Kills-Burglar

[frankenbeemer]

I'm sorry you didn't catch on to the condescension and think anything beyond the first line was directed at you.

Completely different application of the spray, night and day difference in terms of velocity, volume and effect. Chemical differences vary from manufacturer's, some are just enlarged cans of typical pepper spray but it's like comparing a small calibre handgun to a rifle you'd use to hunt elephants. All rifles are guns, but not all guns are rifles. Let me know which one you'd trust to go hunting something that wants to eat you with. *figured I'd dumb it down to something you're familiar with*

Two questions.

1. What does the level of condenscension have to do with who the remark is directed to?

2. So I can't buy non-pepper spray bear repellent?

I'm sure it was just a misuse of words, but it leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're trying to argue...and just arguing for the sake of it.

I'm sure it was just a misuse of words, but it leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're trying to argue...and just arguing for the sake of it.

[cale]

I'm just asking. If they are completely different, what is the difference? Where did I claim it was useless?

I'm sorry you didn't catch on to the condescension and think anything beyond the first line was directed at you.

Completely different application of the spray, night and day difference in terms of velocity, volume and effect. Chemical differences vary from manufacturer's, some are just enlarged cans of typical pepper spray but it's like comparing a small calibre handgun to a rifle you'd use to hunt elephants. All rifles are guns, but not all guns are rifles. Let me know which one you'd trust to go hunting something that wants to eat you with. *figured I'd dumb it down to something you're familiar with*

[frankenbeemer]

Cute, josh has a parrot.

My point was that everyday pepper spray and bear spray are completely different things, rightly so most brands market it as bear spray/repellant.

Still have nothin to back up your claims of it being useless I see. I'd be surprised to learn you didn't pray to your guns too, what with the total blind faith you put in them.

I'm just asking. If they are completely different, what is the difference? Where did I claim it was useless?

[cale]

I'm curious, what is the best non-pepper spray bear repellent?

Cute, josh has a parrot.

My point was that everyday pepper spray and bear spray are completely different things, rightly so most brands market it as bear spray/repellant.

Still have nothin to back up your claims of it being useless I see. I'd be surprised to learn you didn't pray to your guns too, what with the total blind faith you put in them.

[tjts1]

When CCW saves peoples lives thread.

[frankenbeemer]

You calling it pepper spray is a shining example to your ignorance

I'm curious, what is the best non-pepper spray bear repellent?

[joshh]

I never claimed it to be the end all, a bullet is a very effective tool at stopping what's in front of it. I simply stated that guns are not nearly as effective against large bears as gun owners might think they are and that they are ignorant to the effectiveness of sprays. You calling it pepper spray is a shining example to your ignorance, if you think the two are the same please go into the woods with a 2-ounce can of pepper spray and enjoy trying to get a thin stream of spray into the bears face in the 3 or 4 seconds it takes to empty the can. I'm sure it was just a misuse of words, but it leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're trying to argue...and just arguing for the sake of it. Anything to promote firearms right?

You're not serious are you?

http://www.udap.com/product.htm

[cale]

I never claimed it to be the end all, a bullet is a very effective tool at stopping what's in front of it. I simply stated that guns are not nearly as effective against large bears as gun owners might think they are and that they are ignorant to the effectiveness of sprays. You calling it pepper spray is a shining example to your ignorance, if you think the two are the same please go into the woods with a 2-ounce can of pepper spray and enjoy trying to get a thin stream of spray into the bears face in the 3 or 4 seconds it takes to empty the can. I'm sure it was just a misuse of words, but it leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're trying to argue...and just arguing for the sake of it. Anything to promote firearms right?

[joshh]

Have anything to back up that claim? I have an endless supply to support mine. Everyone has an opinion, bring something of substance to the table.



http://www.expeditionsalaska.com/ram...effectiveness/

Here I'll post more of it so the rest of us can see what a fucking joke that story really is.

Canadian and U.S. researchers announced Wednesday that they found the spray stopped aggressive bear behaviour in 92 per cent of the cases, whether that behaviour was an attack or merely rummaging for food. Guns were effective about 67 per cent of the time.”

The news report in the Canadian Paper is here. From the actual report itself, ” Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. “ The study looked at incidents involving brown or grizzly bears, black bears and even 2 polar bear incidents. What’s also important is that in each incident where the person/s using bear spray suffered some injury, those injuries were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization).

Here’s an abstract from the actual report:

“We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray incidents involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 61 cases, 74%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 20 cases, 24%), and polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 2 cases, 2%). Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears’ undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear-inflicted injuries (n = 3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force and should be considered as an option for personal safety for those recreating and working in bear country.”

Pretty easy to pick and choose which incidents pepper spay "worked" in. Give it another 100 years.
If you think pepper spray is an end all for a grizzly or angry bear, you're a fool. Just the same for guns and bears taking a few high caliber rounds and still mauling the target.

Take something with you you know you're proficient with...and have a back up. You still might be fucked...all depends on the incident.

[cale]

LMFAO...I didn't say not to use spray. Most bear charges are mock charges anyways. If a bear wants to eat you, your precious spray isn't going to do shit and the gun is going to be more effective...if you can hit the bear.

Have anything to back up that claim? I have an endless supply to support mine. Everyone has an opinion, bring something of substance to the table.

Canadian and U.S. researchers announced Wednesday that they found the spray stopped aggressive bear behaviour in 92 per cent of the cases, whether that behaviour was an attack or merely rummaging for food. Guns were effective about 67 per cent of the time.”

http://www.expeditionsalaska.com/ramblings/2008/03/27/bear-spray-effectiveness/

[joshh]

You're definitely right and can now discount the opinions of myself and professional opinions of those in charge of preserving that wildlife because of one incident. Keep polishing your guns convinced you're right while the people in the know state otherwise. At least sleeve admits the usefulness of spray, the only other person in this thread I'd believe has ever encountered a grizzly and has an opinion not forged through gun magazines and NRA meets.

LMFAO...I didn't say not to use spray. Most bear charges are mock charges anyways. If a bear wants to eat you, your precious spray isn't going to do shit and the gun is going to be more effective...if you can hit the bear.

[cale]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VdxHvQqsk


You really need to do more research and bear in mind (pun intended) you're talking to outdoor people and gun lovers.

You're definitely right and can now discount the opinions of myself and professional opinions of those in charge of preserving that wildlife because of one incident. Keep polishing your guns convinced you're right while the people in the know state otherwise. At least sleeve admits the usefulness of spray, the only other person in this thread I'd believe has ever encountered a grizzly and has an opinion not forged through gun magazines and NRA meets.

[joshh]

How many bears have you encountered in person? If the answer is none, forgive me if I don't take you seriously. I'm more than willing to humor you by reading any stories of friends of uncles or any other gun propaganda you'd like to share.

There's a reason the government body in charge of forests and wildlife in your gun loving country side with me. What do they know huh? Not guns!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VdxHvQqsk

You really need to do more research and bear in mind (pun intended) you're talking to outdoor people and gun lovers.