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  • rwh11385
    replied
    Originally posted by marshallnoise
    Quite the contrary, why are you so concerned about restricting magazine capacity if it is proven to make no difference? At least my position uses reason and logic which does make sense. Your position only uses emotion, which is mentally weak and not based in fact.

    So if the facts are that it makes no difference, why would people still want restrictions on magazine capacity?

    So that they feel like they are doing something even if they aren't in actuality? Facts aren't half as valuable to politics as feelings are.

    Remember the wave of talk to ban AR-15s?
    Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores some of the most pressing and controversial questions of our time.

    Another problem with liberal dreams of gun control is that the kinds of guns used in the vast majority of crimes would not fall under any plausible weapons ban.

    [...]

    In the vast majority of murders committed with firearms—even most mass killings—the weapon used is a handgun. Unless we outlaw and begin confiscating handguns, the weapons best suited for being carried undetected into a classroom, movie theater, restaurant, or shopping mall for the purpose of committing mass murder will remain readily available in the United States. But no one is seriously proposing that we address the problem on this level. In fact, the Supreme Court has recently ruled, twice (in 2008 and 2010), that banning handguns would be unconstitutional.

    [...]

    Gun-control advocates seem perversely unaware of this. As a consequence, we routinely hear the terms “semi-automatic” and “assault weapon” intoned with misplaced outrage and awe. It is true that a semi-automatic pistol allows a person to shoot and reload slightly more efficiently than a revolver does. But a revolver can be reloaded surprisingly quickly with a device known as a speed loader. (These have been in use since the 1970s.)[4] It is no exaggeration to say that if we merely had 300 million vintage revolvers in this country, we would still have a terrible problem with gun violence, with no solution in sight. And any person entering a school with a revolver for the purpose of killing kids would most likely be able to keep killing them until he ran out of ammunition, or until good people arrived with guns of their own to stop him.

    According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, 47 percent of all murders in the U.S. are committed with handguns. Again, only 3 percent are committed with rifles (of any type). Twice as many murderers (6 percent) use nothing but their bare hands. Thirteen percent use knives.

    [...]

    A renewed ban on “assault weapons”—nearly the only concrete measure that anyone is talking about—will do very little to make our society safer. It is not, as many advocates seem to believe, an important “first step” in achieving a sane policy with respect to guns. It seems likely to be a symbolic step that delays real thinking about the problem of guns for another decade or more.

    [...]

    But when the next lunatic arrives at a school armed with legal pistols and a dozen ten-round magazines, we should be prepared to talk about how an assault weapons ban was a distraction from the real issue of gun violence.
    It seems pretty dumb to take away people's rights out of a symbolic gesture that won't help the problem.
    Last edited by rwh11385; 05-28-2014, 02:21 PM.

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  • marshallnoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    If it makes no difference, then why are you so freaked out about them being restricted? Your position makes no sense.
    Quite the contrary, why are you so concerned about restricting magazine capacity if it is proven to make no difference? At least my position uses reason and logic which does make sense. Your position only uses emotion, which is mentally weak and not based in fact.

    So if the facts are that it makes no difference, why would people still want restrictions on magazine capacity?

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  • marshallnoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    How is that strawman? You say that there should be no restrictions on firearms period, I'm just checking to make sure you really mean it. Do you truly believe we should sell missiles to terrorists and RPGs to felons?
    You posited that I want to arm felons and terrorists. I never made such claim, therefore that is a strawman argument.

    I believe that a white collar felon should be able to own a firearm after he/she have served their time. I also know that the definition of a terrorist is wide open to interpretation. Harry Reid believes that the folks sticking up for the Nevada Rancher are terrorists. See the problem?

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  • CorvallisBMW
    replied
    Originally posted by marshallnoise
    If it makes no difference, then why are you so freaked out about them being restricted? Your position makes no sense.

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  • CorvallisBMW
    replied
    Originally posted by marshallnoise
    Strawman.

    But more importantly, only the classification of felon is not subject to debate or who is in political power. Who has mental illness and who is labeled a terrorist are subjective.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    How is that strawman? You say that there should be no restrictions on firearms period, I'm just checking to make sure you really mean it. Do you truly believe we should sell missiles to terrorists and RPGs to felons?

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  • marshallnoise
    replied
    I will drop this right here.


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  • Thizzelle
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    If this is your argument against firearm laws, then why have any laws at all?

    "Why have a law against rape if rapists will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against robbery if robbers will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against murder if murderers will just ignore it?"

    See how illogical that is?
    laws on a control matrix are a zero.
    they are weak and reactive.
    laws are to try to steer someone into doing the accepted society thing but doesn't always work.

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  • Roysneon
    replied
    Man, I love living in Canada.

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  • rwh11385
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    If it takes you 30 rounds to stop an intruder, you're either a) completely blind or b) mentally handicapped. In either case, you shouldn't have a gun.

    Bottom line is that hi-cap mags are not needed for self defense in any case, period.
    Hmmm, Darin... here with go with an ad hominem attack against a position contrary to yours because of over-simplification / assumption.

    Originally posted by profbooty
    There's usually exceptions when it comes to absoutes. I think your argument would be more persuasive if you said, "In many situtations, hi capacity magazines are not needed."

    One the other hand:

    For a single intruder, 30 rounds would be poor marksmanship. What about multiple intruders? The arguments against magazine size, reloading and accuracy are a bit less persusaive.
    There's cases of homes in some areas outside of the Portland bubble being broken in by 4-5 criminals and family members kidnapped and taken to the ATM to get cash out, raped, and/or murdered, so somehow the assumption that a 5-6 shot revolver or 10-round limited magazine for a semi-auto is pretty scary.

    I'm no expert shot but try to practice at the range every other weekend and have a home defense gun with a STANDARD [not high-capacity] magazine of 17 rounds with a spare magazine also loaded with JHP, which is more than this thread seems to think is reasonable. (And then a few more just for range duty with FMJ, one of which is a 30 rounder) Now, although politicians or naive anti-gun folks might try to tell me that this is unnecessary to protect my home... but is it really in their rights to tell me what mine should be?



    The guys trying to make the laws know nothing about the subject at hand!

    Originally posted by BraveUlysses
    How many should it take, based on your extensive experience?

    This is such a terrible argument because it all hinges on what *you* think is reasonable and not a determination based on anything meaningful.

    Keep repeating your opinion over and over and misinterpreting everyone's posts, I'm sure you'll convince someone eventually
    Being naive but passionate isn't going to somehow make him right, but hopefully he someday realizes that. People like him and politicians shouldn't arbitrarily impose their determinations of reasonable on others. It is really not in the politician's understanding of what normal people might who face the threat need after-all, since a lot of the politicians are protected by security (curious how many rounds they have...)


    Making laws without any understanding of the subject at hand is pretty scary, and would be equally debated by concerned parents and enthusiasts if it were cars. Wider than standard tires are unnecessary and only needed by mentally handicapped persons who cannot handle their cars as is! It leads to dangerous driving that puts at risk other people and should be outlawed so that everyone will be safer and obey the rules! [/sarcasm]

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  • ParsedOut
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    If this is your argument against firearm laws, then why have any laws at all?

    "Why have a law against rape if rapists will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against robbery if robbers will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against murder if murderers will just ignore it?"

    See how illogical that is?
    Those are actions not tools used to accomplish those actions. Let's make a law that restricts how penis' are used? Robbery and murder usually include a weapon of some sort, so let's go ahead an legislate the length of all knives, size of pointy rocks and baseball bats must be kept in a locked room at all baseball fields. Obviously you're so passionate about this subject you can't see past your own bullshit.

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  • marshallnoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    What about a mentally ill felon on the terror watch list? Should they be able to own one?
    Strawman.

    But more importantly, only the classification of felon is not subject to debate or who is in political power. Who has mental illness and who is labeled a terrorist are subjective.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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  • marshallnoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    If this is your argument against firearm laws, then why have any laws at all?

    "Why have a law against rape if rapists will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against robbery if robbers will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against murder if murderers will just ignore it?"

    See how illogical that is?
    Laws only work on honest people. That is the point. All you do is make honest people criminals. Laws don't stop crimes from being committed. Only strict enforcement.

    If the Attorney General can run guns across the border with no repercussion even though it is illegal to do so, what is the point of the law in the first place?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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  • rwh11385
    replied
    Originally posted by CorvallisBMW
    The only purpose that high-capacity magazines serve is to make offensive killing easier. Period. You can fire more rounds at more targets in a shorter period of time while showing yourself in a defenseless posture (i.e. reloading) less frequently. In other words, it makes killing lots of people in a short time period easier. It has nothing to do with defensive shooting and everything to do with offensive shooting.
    Hmmm. Quite interesting approach Darin in stating your opinion as absolute fact. The sole purpose of high-capacity magazines is to make offensive killing easier? I guess you'd have to consider how many high-capacity magazines are owned in the US and how many offensive killings are done with them. Is everyone who owns a high-capacity magazine and hasn't committed a murder have just not put them into service yet? Or are you naively looking to simplify your argument against them by not understanding that good guys find them useful as well?

    High-capacity magazines for the 10/22 are popular but pretty much the only thing it'd be truly effective against would be squirrels or other small game. So why would sales be what they are for high-capacity magazines for the 10/22? Maybe because people enjoy the sport of target shooting and swapping out 10-round rotary magazines is annoying and a BX-25 reduces the frequency of changing magazines by 150%. (And provides something to hold onto before releasing it instead of having to catch it as it drops) So no, the sole purpose of high-capacity magazines is not as simple as you perceive - to only be enable more efficient offensive killing.

    More important disconnect of yours is not understanding the difference in time between swapping magazines and reloading magazines. Dropping a mag, inserting a new one, and racking it doesn't take that long compared to compressing the magazine spring and inserting one round at a time. If someone is destined to do harm (and not helped mentally before they do it) like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold or Elliot Rodger but have only access to limited capacity magazines, they simply will carry more magazines. The assault weapons ban didn't prevent Columbine and Elliot brought 41 10-round magazines. The most recent tragedy shows that even in a strong anti-gun state of California, the regulations of magazine capacity don't prevent people from doing wrong to their fellow human being. You can't legislate away crime nor evil. Look at how pathetic the war on drugs has gone in the country.

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  • CorvallisBMW
    replied
    Originally posted by ParsedOut
    Legislation doesn't mean anything to people who don't respect the law...and people who do become at a further disadvantage. The fact that semi-auto (full auto is only legal for LEO by the way) firearms are in existence we can't just pass a law and now they go away. People with bad intentions will always find a way.
    If this is your argument against firearm laws, then why have any laws at all?

    "Why have a law against rape if rapists will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against robbery if robbers will just ignore it?"
    "Why have laws against murder if murderers will just ignore it?"

    See how illogical that is?

    Leave a comment:


  • ParsedOut
    replied
    Originally posted by Roysneon
    I love shooting. I don't do it much, but I do enjoy it. I own guns as well. I don't think that a loaded, semi or full auto high cap weapon is a good idea at all. Since there are people who do, we need legislation that keeps people from doing stupid shit like that.
    Legislation doesn't mean anything to people who don't respect the law...and people who do become at a further disadvantage. The fact that semi-auto (full auto is only legal for LEO by the way) firearms are in existence we can't just pass a law and now they go away. People with bad intentions will always find a way.

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