Trump Thread 2.0

[cale]

Cale, phillip, nando? You support this kind of shit? Or can you denounce the murder of police? Do you believe in fair trials? Do you believe that individuals have rights at all?

The fact that you even have to question that tells me the strawman you've made to represent me and likely others, is about as far from reality as possible.

[phillipj]

I am not calling for Civil War. What I am saying is that the war has already been called and we are watching it unfold.

You really seemed to ask for and want a Civi War a few pages back.

it is as simple as this: A small portion of this nation has people who do not want to play the game that this country has been playing since it started (representative democracy in a capitalist economic system).

Is it really that simple? Have we really been 'playing the same game since this country started'?

• How did slavery fit into capitalism or a representative democracy?
• How did the fight for equality and rights of all kinds-- worker's rights, gender equality, racial equality, work into our history? Was it just given (?) or did the discriminated, the disenfranchised and the underprivileged have to fight for it? Was this country just perfectly equal from the beginning, were things always fair and square? Is there a completely level playing field now? [no]
• Do we currently live in a pure representative democracy or a pure capitalist economic system? [no we do not]

Everyone in this country is playing football (for example), yet some of these people don't want to play football. They want to play something else (whatever decay will enlighten us with, my guess its just typical leftist marxism). And they are pissed that no one else wants to play that game, so they burn down courthouses, tear down statues of people they don't know anything about, and tag/destroy property that isn't theirs. So what I am telling you is that the vast majority of this nation wants to go to work, come home, hang with their family and live their lives. They do not want a revolution and they do not want to change their way of life, no matter how much of a tantrum leftist anarchists want them to.

Perhaps you have everything you want. You like how things are. You have no need to protest or stand up for any more rights or justice than you have now. Perhaps you don't really care for anyone else that may be currently discriminated against(?) I don't personally feel that way. For example, I see access to healthcare as a right to all, just not a right to the richest. I also want to see common sense regulations on capitalism and in our politics and elections specifically to ensure fairness and so that success *can not be bought.* I also see frequent discrimination for people who aren't as privileged as myself.

Regarding the democrat party being a "big tent party," it was at one point. Its not anymore. ... They do not believe America is exceptional, they suppress free speech, and they certainly do not give a shit about the rule of law

• Who knew not one Democrat believes in free speech or law. Since when do you speak for the thousands of diverse people and mindsets and agendas within the Democratic Party?
• There seems to be more dissent and differing viewpoints within the Democratic party than the Republican Party these days.
• Also, the majority of us are disgusted with the 2 party system. Masses have left both parties and most people identify themselves as "Independent" (like myself).

Got it, Jordan Peterson isn't that smart in your mind and he is just selling snake oil and profiting off of everyone else's misery. That is the weirdest take anyone has ever had on him. Its clear you don't know the first thing about him or what he speaks about. Its fine that you feel that way, but its just an erroneous conclusion to jump to.

Well, I definitely did not say he is not smart. But I do think he says a lot without "saying" anything at all. The article I linked gave a good summary of *my opinion*. I assume you personally like him because he'll often equate the establishment of rights to those discriminated against as totalitarianism and an infringement of established groups' rights. Which is exactly what you are talking about above with 'playing the same game since this country started'. Jordan Peterson may compare Maoist China to, say, some people looking for Trans rights. He'll use a mountain of rhetoric to equate them with "slippery slope" logic. You do a similar thing when you paint the very complicated and difficult circumstances around the current racial injustice protests so simply into Marxism, anarchy, or some grey idea of "anti-Americanism". Or with "the entire Democratic Party being against the rule of law or free speech." It's ridiculous because it's very inaccurate.

[decay]

Cops are not murderers institutionally or otherwise. Believing that is just pure, willful ignorance.

oh? the black folks started a list.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/say-the...ved-incidents/

i wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time. i was in my own fucking house that i paid rent in. i had every right to be there, doing my community college math homework, and if you want to know why that might polarize a person, imagine having been doing the same kind of extract/detain operations in iraq half a year earlier and now you're the one with guns in your face.

you're calling for war, and you have no idea what war actually looks like.

if you think i'm a psychopath, maybe it's time to consider what military or police *does* to a person, because we're all trained killers, outside of the POGs.

[marshallnoise]

i don't expect anyone to take my side. i know my opinions are not in the majority.

but look at history.

non-violence doesn't change anything and gets its leadership killed. on the other hand, bastille day turned things around pretty quickly in france. it's not that hard to see what does and doesn't work, if the goal is to change a fucked-up regime.

Non-violence made the Civil Rights Act happen. Gays can legally marry now. Trannys can happily exist now (should their gender dysphoria allow them). Why are you saying it doesn't work?

Equating 21st century United States to 18th century France is silly. And citing the French Revolution as a success is like Pol Pot saying he successfully created their own "Cambodian master race" by wholesale slaughter of 2 million innocents. https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/the-khmer-rouge

Yes, armed violence does work. The problem is that you and your friends are simply not justified to do so.

[marshallnoise]

I don't see what Trump, or you, or I have anything to do with what decay posts. But, nice deflection.

And of course I don't advocate for the murder of police, what an utterly ridiculous accusation. I do not know decay or have any responsibility to defend myself for what he posts. Also, if you want to go there - it was YOU who advocated violence if you don't get your way ("civil war", "you'll get what's coming to you").

Since hyperbole is your favorite thing ever, do you advocate for people that are not white Christians to "go back where they came from"? Because Dear Leader said those exact words. And since you parrot everything he says, you must believe that too?

It's hilarious to hear you rant about "believing in rights". The only rights you give a damn about are using the 1st amendment to protect your hate speech and the 2nd amendment to intimidate people you don't like.

Its not a deflection. I am seeing what someone calls themselves a leftist, you are a leftist and I am asking if you agree with it. If you don't, and you said you don't, then his definition of leftism is simply wrong. I merely asked you to come down on one side or the other of a line in the sand decay, an avowed "leftist" stated.

Defense of liberty, actual liberty, is no vice. I will use deadly force if they come to try and take my rights away, especially if they are in jackboots and believe they have a right to take my life/property away. The law of nature allows me to defend my property or life. Locke specifically stated that government was created to protect people's natural and God given (FSM, whatever) rights. Taking a defensive stand against anarcho-terrorists is not me advocating violence. Its using violence to prevent theft.

I advocate for the individual as I don't believe in group identities as a means for advocating for people. I am not a racist, sexist, or any other "ist." The individual is supreme. That is the correct level of analysis. I do advocate for people to fucking leave if they don't want to participate in our society as it exists. Slight changes to the game are fine, but wholesale throwing out the baby with the bathwater is unacceptable.

Your obsession with Trump is remarkable. Did GWB do this to you too? I am betting so. You are ideologically possessed. That's fine. I am aware of it and that's all that matters.

No, I believe in everyone's right to exist, do the best they can with what they have, use every advantage life affords them and the right for people to defend their property and livelihood.

What have I said that is hate speech? Who am I intimidating with the 2nd Amendment? decay doesn't seem intimidated. Are you?

[marshallnoise]

if you don't understand how anarchism is a leftist ideology i can't fucking help you.

The left and right work within a political spectrum and the core tenants are the state, the people and what to do between them. Anarchists do not believe in the state, your guy said as much. They don't want to use the state to get their way, they just want the state gone. I have not missed that point at all. I think you need to think about what you are advocating a bit more critically. Because you are doing the conflating here, not me.

Good read. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/libr...ch-leftism-101

you are disagreeing with communism, not leftism. anarchists don't like communism either, it's just a different control system.

No, I am disagreeing with leftism. Your definition of leftism is wrong because you think that anarchism is a leftist ideology when it simply cannot, by definition.

pfft. they haven't even been able to arrest me yet.

explain to me why i shouldn't grin when cops get killed. they kill people of every color in our country, every day. i've been dragged out of my own house at gunpoint by 6 officers in an "oops wrong house" raid. ice cube said it- fuck the police.

Do something stupid enough, you'll get it.

Why shouldn't you grin when cops get killed? Because your reasoning is not rooted in reality. Cops are not murderers institutionally or otherwise. Believing that is just pure, willful ignorance.

I would be pissed if I got caught up in a "oops wrong house" raid too. But I would not be a fucking child about it and wish for the murders of cops as a result of me being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This type of thinking should be observed, noted and disregarded. You should be firmly placed on the fringe of society for ideas like that and thank God that's exactly where you are.

Psychopath.

[decay]

i don't expect anyone to take my side. i know my opinions are not in the majority.

but look at history.

non-violence doesn't change anything and gets its leadership killed. on the other hand, bastille day turned things around pretty quickly in france. it's not that hard to see what does and doesn't work, if the goal is to change a fucked-up regime.

[nando]

Cale, phillip, nando? You support this kind of shit? Or can you denounce the murder of police? Do you believe in fair trials? Do you believe that individuals have rights at all?

I don't see what Trump, or you, or I have anything to do with what decay posts. But, nice deflection.

And of course I don't advocate for the murder of police, what an utterly ridiculous accusation. I do not know decay or have any responsibility to defend myself for what he posts. Also, if you want to go there - it was YOU who advocated violence if you don't get your way ("civil war", "you'll get what's coming to you").

Since hyperbole is your favorite thing ever, do you advocate for people that are not white Christians to "go back where they came from"? Because Dear Leader said those exact words. And since you parrot everything he says, you must believe that too?

It's hilarious to hear you rant about "believing in rights". The only rights you give a damn about are using the 1st amendment to protect your hate speech and the 2nd amendment to intimidate people you don't like.

[decay]

Ok, so you aren't a leftist then either. Nothing in that article said Mikhail Bakunin was a leftist. You are an anarchist because you are a large child. That's fine. You don't have a clue what anarchy looks like then. Not a fucking clue.

if you don't understand how anarchism is a leftist ideology i can't fucking help you.

The only thing that puts anarchism on the political spectrum is FUCKING NOTHING. You don't believe in government. Leftists believe in the ultimate power of the government to be used to guarantee equal outcomes (shared misery).

you are disagreeing with communism, not leftism. anarchists don't like communism either, it's just a different control system.

No, you guys are going to get smoked if that day comes.

pfft. they haven't even been able to arrest me yet.

explain to me why i shouldn't grin when cops get killed. they kill people of every color in our country, every day. i've been dragged out of my own house at gunpoint by 6 officers in an "oops wrong house" raid. ice cube said it- fuck the police.

[marshallnoise]

where the fuck do i start with that question? you're asking me to write a goddamned essay here and i'm sorry, but i'm (haha supposed to be) working right now.

read up on this guy. this is what actual anarchists think. this is leftist ideology. you may not like it any more than you like the democrats, but it is not the same, at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin

and as far as the training... a reservist army guy whose MOS was construction took out a bunch of pigs in dallas. 5 kills, 9 casualties. he might have gotten away if he'd learned anything about insurgency tactics. imagine what happens when infantry gets involved in this war you're wishing for.

Ok, so you aren't a leftist then either. Nothing in that article said Mikhail Bakunin was a leftist. You are an anarchist because you are a large child. That's fine. You don't have a clue what anarchy looks like then. Not a fucking clue.

The only thing that puts anarchism on the political spectrum is FUCKING NOTHING. You don't believe in government. Leftists believe in the ultimate power of the government to be used to guarantee equal outcomes (shared misery).

Are you claiming that there are large swaths of active and inactive military members that will go on the hunt of conservatives, police, etc because they are anarchists like you? Should I worry then that I live next to Camp Pendleton and they are just waiting for the time to kill republicans in using insurgency tactics?

No, you guys are going to get smoked if that day comes. Its gross you celebrate the murder of police like that.

Cale, phillip, nando? You support this kind of shit? Or can you denounce the murder of police? Do you believe in fair trials? Do you believe that individuals have rights at all?

[marshallnoise]

Voting Absentee means you first request a Vote by Mail ballot and sometimes give a reason. Vote by Mail means if you are an actively registered voter the State will send you a ballot to your registered address.

So, you are worried they may send a ballot to a registered voter who has, let's say, recently died and someone in that house where they sent it to fills it out differently and also forges their signature and perhaps proof of identification?

No, you have to give a reason and you have to provide proof of who you are in order to be able to get an Absentee ballot. Its not a suggestion, its a requirement.

Vote by Mail just sends legitimate ballots throughout the the state to registered voters (of which half do not show up to polls, right?) and if they are not completed, someone can complete it for them. That happens all the time. I am not worried about something that doesn't happen. I know it happens. Ballot harvesting which is tied into Vote by Mail is also another influx of fraud opportunity.

It is seriously scary, stupid and insane to have ballots floating around that can be completed by anyone. As it stands today, you have to be registered to vote and you have to go to a polling place and put forth the effort to do it. I cannot see how you guy's don't see how dangerous it is for legitimate ballots to be floating around the mail and being picked up by 3rd parties and delivered to the polls.

If you can go to the grocery store and wear a mask, social distance, etc, you can get your fucking lazy ass out to the polls. You are not going to die from Covid by going to the polls.

[decay]

Well, you are just wrong. There is no distinction between the democrat party and leftist ideology. If all you can find to be pissed at Joe Biden is him not liking your favorite form of music, then wow. You sure showed me how far apart you guys are!!!

https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/

Perhaps you can tell me what is the difference between what your version of leftism is versus what the Democratic party platform says. If you tell me that leftists aren't left at all because they just want anarchy or some shit, then fine. The Democrats are not far off that standard. With the Green New Deal, abolishing private insurance, free education, etc...I cannot see what the damned difference is.

So please enlighten us.

I am not sure what your training will do for you, but ok.

where the fuck do i start with that question? you're asking me to write a goddamned essay here and i'm sorry, but i'm (haha supposed to be) working right now.

read up on this guy. this is what actual anarchists think. this is leftist ideology. you may not like it any more than you like the democrats, but it is not the same, at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin

and as far as the training... a reservist army guy whose MOS was construction took out a bunch of pigs in dallas. 5 kills, 9 casualties. he might have gotten away if he'd learned anything about insurgency tactics. imagine what happens when infantry gets involved in this war you're wishing for.

[marshallnoise]

Which is what happens when people follow a Personality, but not actual principles.

There's more to it too... I think large swaths of this country are just desperate for some kind of, any kind of answer because times are that tough, confusing, or scary. Then there are also just so many people that have total numbness or cynicism and they just don't care at all.

And that's not to mention how easy/available it is slip into a social/media rabbit hole which can prove or disprove anything if only you search hard enough.

Wasn't it you that fellatiates the testicles of Bernie Sanders? Yeah, it is you! You literally think he is a saint while I have specifically said that Trump is NOT a saint. Who gobbles who's cock?

I am not morally led by Trump or adore him, but he is a damned sight better than the corpse that is Joe Biden or any other garbage candidate the Democrats put up in the past 2 election cycles.

What are your principles exactly? Care to share?

I know that several people have observed that you literally just became politically aware within the past year or so. You should clean your room before you attempt to fix the world.

[phillipj]

There is a huge difference in Absentee and Vote by Mail. The difference is that you have to register to vote absentee, which means you have to submit proof you are eligible to vote, you have to declare a party and you have to guarantee you will not vote in person in addition to voting absentee. Vote by Mail is merely sending a ballot to a house and you have no idea who is filling it out. They are not the same thing and it is not suppressing the vote. You guys are crazy.

Voting Absentee means you first request a Vote by Mail ballot and sometimes give a reason. Vote by Mail means if you are an actively registered voter the State will send you a ballot to your registered address.

So, you are worried they may send a ballot to a registered voter who has, let's say, recently died and someone in that house where they sent it to fills it out differently and also forges their signature and perhaps proof of identification?

[marshallnoise]

When you say to Decay ~ "You are an enemy and you're going to get what's coming to you" is that supposed to be a vague threat? I still want to understand your call for Civil War?

Also, "Marshallnoise" -- why specifically have 'Democrats' given up common sense? And, do you think the US Democratic party is *not* a big tent party? including Establishment Corporate or Neoliberal figures like a Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer, conservative Blue Dogs, and progressives like AOC, etc.(you could go on with further divisions)? ... and what should the Democratic Party really 'take it back' to? Did it somehow used to be an acceptable political party but now it isn't anymore?


Also, re: your link to Jordan Peterson... I find him very much the desperate man's 'smart person' feeding off the anger and confusion of these difficult times.

I am not calling for Civil War. What I am saying is that the war has already been called and we are watching it unfold. There is a massive culture war going on right now and it is as simple as this: A small portion of this nation has people who do not want to play the game that this country has been playing since it started (representative democracy in a capitalist economic system). Everyone in this country is playing football (for example), yet some of these people don't want to play football. They want to play something else (whatever decay will enlighten us with, my guess its just typical leftist marxism). And they are pissed that no one else wants to play that game, so they burn down courthouses, tear down statues of people they don't know anything about, and tag/destroy property that isn't theirs. So what I am telling you is that the vast majority of this nation wants to go to work, come home, hang with their family and live their lives. They do not want a revolution and they do not want to change their way of life, no matter how much of a tantrum leftist anarchists want them to.

Its not a vague threat to say that decay will get what is coming to him. It is literally what will happen if this war escalates with more violence. He has drawn his straw and thrown in his lots. So have I, so by that standard, I will get what is coming to me.

Regarding the democrat party being a "big tent party," it was at one point. Its not anymore. People are leaving the democrat party because the party has left them. There is no such thing as a blue dog democrat anymore. That was from a specific period in American history. Most of them converted to the republican party about 3 decades ago.

Yes, the Democrat party, while always believing in big government and for the nanny state, used to still believe in American Exceptionalism, free speech, rule of law, etc. They do not believe in that anymore. They do not believe America is exceptional, they suppress free speech, and they certainly do not give a shit about the rule of law (spare me the "But Trump wants to delay the elections!!!" garbage). Spitballing like business people do does not demonstrate authoritarian tendencies.

Got it, Jordan Peterson isn't that smart in your mind and he is just selling snake oil and profiting off of everyone else's misery. That is the weirdest take anyone has ever had on him. Its clear you don't know the first thing about him or what he speaks about. Its fine that you feel that way, but its just an erroneous conclusion to jump to.