Trump Thread 2.0

[marshallnoise]

why's it hard to say that cops murdering people is outrageous?

you're the one calling for civil war. that's what that looks like.

Because the claim that cops are murdering people is factually incorrect. It is statistically incorrect as well.

I am not calling for civil war, I am merely acknowledging that there are insurgents like yourself who are already waging the war. Only in your brain would that equate that I am inviting civil war. Unless you think that if I just let the tanks run over me, then the civil war wouldn't have to exist.

[marshallnoise]

Why do you feel the need to keep telling a bunch of other people you don't know exactly what they believe? Also why do you frequently homogenize large groups of diverse people or movements as completely one thing or another, when it's always much more complicated than that?

I don't have any idea what you are talking about. You are the one supporting claims like institutional racism exists while providing no proof other than "because."

Above you responded to a comment of mine speculating why people might follow personalities over principles; it goes for any case, beyond Trump. It was not responding to you. & It wasn't about you.

My personal principles are Honesty. Morality. Hard Work. Quality & Detail. And respect. It sure looks like you could learn some.

That's cute.

---

And, because I don't have 3,000 posts in the R3V political threads is probably a good thing. As stated before, occasionally I see something here that irks me and I feel the instinct to speak out, especially when no one else does. Recently it was someone denying institutional racism. A few months ago someone talked about "hanging a muslim congress lady from a tree." Lately you are welcoming a "civil war." These kind of things are Alarming. I often try and ask and understand the motivations behind them, but I do see it's all basically a huge waste of time.

So what irks you is not advocating the murdering of cops. But it does irk you when I say that systemic racism doesn't exist, when there is no proof that it does exist.

You don't want to understand the motivations of anyone. If you did, you would see that Bernie is a fucking fraud. At least I recognize that Trump is a blowhard who may have authoritarian tendencies but will never have them realized and he doesn't even want to realize them.

[marshallnoise]

You really seemed to ask for and want a Civi War a few pages back.

No, I stated the Civil War was upon us. And I drew a line in the sand on what side I would be on.

Is it really that simple? Have we really been 'playing the same game since this country started'?

• How did slavery fit into capitalism or a representative democracy?
• How did the fight for equality and rights of all kinds-- worker's rights, gender equality, racial equality, work into our history? Was it just given (?) or did the discriminated, the disenfranchised and the underprivileged have to fight for it? Was this country just perfectly equal from the beginning, were things always fair and square? Is there a completely level playing field now? [no]
• Do we currently live in a pure representative democracy or a pure capitalist economic system? [no we do not]

The idea of this country has always been individual liberty and there were obstacles to achieving that. For instance, slavery was not invented by the United States of America. It was the norm at the founding, even though the founders wanted to abolish it outright, the union could not form without excepting it. Sorry, that's how the dice were rolled and that's what happened. We fought a bloody war to stop it which is more than what most countries did.

Our system allows for diagnosis of problems and it gives opportunity to correct things that need correcting. The system works. If you seek perfection, you'll not find it anywhere.

We live in a constitutional republic and a mostly intact capitalist economic system. We would do good to use the system as intended, make small, incremental changes (because society has to adjust to changes) and we would do better if we would be better capitalists.

Perhaps you have everything you want. You like how things are. You have no need to protest or stand up for any more rights or justice than you have now. Perhaps you don't really care for anyone else that may be currently discriminated against(?) I don't personally feel that way. For example, I see access to healthcare as a right to all, just not a right to the richest. I also want to see common sense regulations on capitalism and in our politics and elections specifically to ensure fairness and so that success *can not be bought.* I also see frequent discrimination for people who aren't as privileged as myself.

Because government is not perfect because it is made up of imperfect individuals, I do not expect perfection from our system nor do I expect people to never be maligned or suffer. Life is tough, deal with it.

We can have discussions that healthcare should be free to everyone (and everyone has access to healthcare, paying for it is the rub, right?). I disagree with you on that. We can discuss what you think common sense regulation on capitalism looks like. My guess is that your definition of common sense and mine do not align. I do not see frequent discrimination of anyone and you are going to have to back up those claims with actual information in order for us to have a meaningful discussion.

The thing is we can have discussions about it but if you don't get 100% what you want, you have to deal with that. You can't go rioting in the streets like children. It is just not acceptable.

• Who knew not one Democrat believes in free speech or law. Since when do you speak for the thousands of diverse people and mindsets and agendas within the Democratic Party?
• There seems to be more dissent and differing viewpoints within the Democratic party than the Republican Party these days.
• Also, the majority of us are disgusted with the 2 party system. Masses have left both parties and most people identify themselves as "Independent" (like myself).

The democrat party does not believe in free speech or the rule of law. Their actions speak volumes. I already provided proof of that.

I have no idea where you get that idea that the democratic party has differing viewpoints. They are on an all out war with people who do not conform. The democrat party is the party of conformity, period.

Good for you that you are disgusted with a 2 party system. Its what we have, do your part to change that if you want.

Well, I definitely did not say he is not smart. But I do think he says a lot without "saying" anything at all. The article I linked gave a good summary of *my opinion*. I assume you personally like him because he'll often equate the establishment of rights to those discriminated against as totalitarianism and an infringement of established groups' rights. Which is exactly what you are talking about above with 'playing the same game since this country started'. Jordan Peterson may compare Maoist China to, say, some people looking for Trans rights. He'll use a mountain of rhetoric to equate them with "slippery slope" logic. You do a similar thing when you paint the very complicated and difficult circumstances around the current racial injustice protests so simply into Marxism, anarchy, or some grey idea of "anti-Americanism". Or with "the entire Democratic Party being against the rule of law or free speech." It's ridiculous because it's very inaccurate.

You just don't get it, and that's fine.

[marshallnoise]

anarchism is a leftist ideology. i realize it's not what everyone chooses, but as long as i live my life in a mutual-aid network independent of the government without harming anyone, what's the fucking problem? why are you so stuck on this stupid semantic bullshit?

No, it is not and that's the rub. Definitions make a difference. Stop maligning other leftists by associating your anarchism with leftism. They are not the same or even close.

i'm not intimidated because i've done a threat assessment on you and you're low-risk.

Gat damn you are tough! Boy oh boy you are brilliant.

Get the fuck outta here with that toughguy shit. You may think you are cool, but everyone else is laughing at you.

[marshallnoise]

ROFL -

https://www.chicagotribune.com/colum...coa-story.html


FWIW, there will be no in person school here. It sucks, honestly, but I'd rather that than have my kids get sick and die.

I wonder, how many of you guys have school age kids?

You are afraid! That'll do it.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.o.../2/e2020004879

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/how-deadly-is-covid-19-for-children-here-s-what-we-know-1.5023528

Have no fear, your kids will not die nor will they likely transmit covid to you.

Your paranoia is clouding your judgement.

[marshallnoise]

Yes it was. I called you out on your bullshit and you ignored it, then accused me of wanting the police to be murdered, of being a "leftist" (whatever that means to you), etc. You make statements that can't be backed up by anything and then run away when called out on it. Your own Trump "election fraud team" spent like a year and millions of dollars on an "investigation" and came up with... nothing. Claims of widespread mail in voting fraud are 100% bullshit, and either you ignore it or are stupid enough to believe the lies you are being fed because they fit the narrative you already believe.

You can't read. I asked if you supported what another leftist supports. Simple as that. That is not me accusing you of wanting cops being murdered. And you are a liberal, and I am asking you to police people on your side of the aisle. That is reasonable. You aren't responsible, but you certainly can denounce the murder of cops. There is literally nothing that needs to be backed up regarding my request of you.

Forcefirebird specifically told you that there is mail in voting fraud. This is not bullshit at all. Its common sense: loose ballots will be picked out of trash cans and other people will vote illegally using those ballots. Open your fucking eyes nando. https://electionlab.mit.edu/research...bsentee-voting

Great. I agree on some of your points. I also think that liberty means that people have the right not to be murdered on the street by the government. You know, "due process" for everyone, not just the privileged.

I agree that people have a right to not be murdered on the street by the government. The whole rub is how prevalent it occurs. 2019 showed cops killed 999 people. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2019/

Calling all of these murders is silly. There is a huge difference between murder and killing and everyone knows that. Rayshard Brooks was a justified police killing. And new video evidence of the George Floyd arrest shows very clearly that he was whacked out on drugs and being very erratic. Is it a justification for putting a knee on his neck? No idea. But I can say that cops increasingly have to deal with whacked out drug users and that puts both the cops and the person being interacted with (who is on drugs) at risk for escalation. There are more than 375 million police interactions a year and with 1000 people dying as a result of that, statistically, cops do not murder civilians. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883

I'm not the one who would stand up for him no matter what, when it's extremely obvious he should have never been elected and his administration has been absolutely disastrous for the country. Literally, the worst Q2 GDP contraction in the history of the country, and it's not even close (-32% - like 4x the great depression, makes 2008 look like a party). 150,000 people dead and counting, the worst death rate in the world for Covid-19. The rest of the world and all of our allies now hate us (where before, we were the envy of almost everyone), while Trump sucks up to dictators and fascists. I can't even leave the country or see family across the border, which is like 5 miles away, because they don't want Americans there anymore (you should see the online comments from the Canadians). But you see that as a success? What exactly would you see as a failure then?

I don't blame Trump for the virus, but their response has been absolutely, horribly inept, and the proof is in the many other countries who have responded far better without trying to pretend everything is just fine. GWB failed at Hurricane Katrina, which only affected a small part of the country. This time, that ineptitude is affecting the entire nation. BTW, he was the least popular president in history when he left office in 2008, yet people still like him more than Trump. Think about that.

You say you don't blame Trump for the virus, then blame Trump for not doing enough in reaction to the virus. What exactly do you want him to do? Numerous European countries do not have mask requirements and their kids are going to school like usual.

I don't think you have a realistic expectation of what government can do to prevent a virus from spreading other than the very basic things like suggest good health practices and closing down entries into the country from countries that have a ton of cases (just like Trump did).

I don't give a fuck about you wanting to run to Canada or what Canadians feel about Americans. They shouldn't give a shit about what I say about them, because its irrelevant. I am sorry your life is inconvenienced by a fucking virus that no one asked for and no one could have responded perfectly to. The economy is not on Trump: Its on the governors who are refusing to keep their economies open. How you can tie him to that is insane.

You believe that until you don't. I think that the 150,000+ dead people had a right to exist and that the Trump administration's totally inept and incompetent non-response was directly responsible for a large portion of those deaths. You believe people have a right to exist until they're murdered, on camera, in broad daylight, by officers of the law. And you wonder why people are pissed, rioting and protesting? What did you expect to happen?

Here you go again blaming Trump for something out of his control. He didn't kill those people. Andrew Cuomo did by sending covid patients back into nursing homes. Common sense would have stopped Cuomo from doing that, but he would have to have common sense.

Again, Trump and his administration are not monarchs with absolute authority to do everything you think he should do (and that is why I don't take his Tweets seriously). I don't want a king, but it sounds like you do. Maybe you don't understand how this country was constructed (other than stupid idea of systemic racism) because Federalism puts the control in the state's hands and out of the executive branch's hands. ON PURPOSE. You dolt.

I don't believe you're anything other than a keyboard troll, honestly. No, I'm not intimidated by your veiled threats, but I'm aware when you brandish your firearm (and even the fact that you own one), that's exactly the point you're trying to make.

Good, I am glad you aren't intimidated. And no, I don't brandish firearms because I take them seriously. You are hurling accusations again.

[decay]

decay, a self-professed leftist, wants to have cops murdered. I am asking other self-professed leftists if they agree with another self-professed leftist's desire to have cops murdered.


I don't know why its hard to say that murdering cops is outrageous.

why's it hard to say that cops murdering people is outrageous?

you're the one calling for civil war. that's what that looks like.

[nando]

I never professed to be anything. You're the one who assigned that label. I'm just here to watch Trump crash and burn.

[marshallnoise]

The fact that you even have to question that tells me the strawman you've made to represent me and likely others, is about as far from reality as possible.

decay, a self-professed leftist, wants to have cops murdered. I am asking other self-professed leftists if they agree with another self-professed leftist's desire to have cops murdered.


I don't know why its hard to say that murdering cops is outrageous.

[phillipj]

Link: The Unique US Failure to Control the Coronavirus
Nearly every country has struggled to contain the coronavirus. But only one affluent nation has suffered a severe, sustained outbreak for more than four months.

[phillipj]

Which is what happens when people follow a Personality, but not actual principles.

There's more to it too... I think large swaths of this country are just desperate for some kind of, any kind of answer because times are that tough, confusing, or scary. Then there are also just so many people that have total numbness or cynicism and they just don't care at all. And that's not to mention how easy/available it is slip into a social/media rabbit hole which can prove or disprove anything if only you search hard enough.

Wasn't it you that fellatiates the testicles of Bernie Sanders? Yeah, it is you! You literally think he is a saint while I have specifically said that Trump is NOT a saint. Who gobbles who's cock? I am not morally led by Trump or adore him, but he is a damned sight better than the corpse that is Joe Biden or any other garbage candidate the Democrats put up in the past 2 election cycles.

What are your principles exactly? Care to share? I know that several people have observed that you literally just became politically aware within the past year or so. You should clean your room before you attempt to fix the world.

Why do you feel the need to keep telling a bunch of other people you don't know exactly what they believe? Also why do you frequently homogenize large groups of diverse people or movements as completely one thing or another, when it's always much more complicated than that?

Above you responded to a comment of mine speculating why people might follow personalities over principles; it goes for any case, beyond Trump. It was not responding to you. & It wasn't about you.

My personal principles are Honesty. Morality. Hard Work. Quality & Detail. And respect. It sure looks like you could learn some.

---

And, because I don't have 3,000 posts in the R3V political threads is probably a good thing. As stated before, occasionally I see something here that irks me and I feel the instinct to speak out, especially when no one else does. Recently it was someone denying institutional racism. A few months ago someone talked about "hanging a muslim congress lady from a tree." Lately you are welcoming a "civil war." These kind of things are Alarming. I often try and ask and understand the motivations behind them, but I do see it's all basically a huge waste of time.

[decay]

Its not a deflection. I am seeing what someone calls themselves a leftist, you are a leftist and I am asking if you agree with it. If you don't, and you said you don't, then his definition of leftism is simply wrong. I merely asked you to come down on one side or the other of a line in the sand decay, an avowed "leftist" stated.

anarchism is a leftist ideology. i realize it's not what everyone chooses, but as long as i live my life in a mutual-aid network independent of the government without harming anyone, what's the fucking problem? why are you so stuck on this stupid semantic bullshit?

What have I said that is hate speech? Who am I intimidating with the 2nd Amendment? decay doesn't seem intimidated. Are you?

i'm not intimidated because i've done a threat assessment on you and you're low-risk.

[nando]

AXIOS on HBO: President Trump Exclusive Interview (Full Episode) | HBO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaaTZkqsaxY

The leader of our nation looks like a 12 year old boy who showed up to school unprepared for his history test. pathetic.

"stable genius" indeed.

All he cares about is "ratings".

[nando]

Its not a deflection. I am seeing what someone calls themselves a leftist, you are a leftist and I am asking if you agree with it. If you don't, and you said you don't, then his definition of leftism is simply wrong. I merely asked you to come down on one side or the other of a line in the sand decay, an avowed "leftist" stated.

Yes it was. I called you out on your bullshit and you ignored it, then accused me of wanting the police to be murdered, of being a "leftist" (whatever that means to you), etc. You make statements that can't be backed up by anything and then run away when called out on it. Your own Trump "election fraud team" spent like a year and millions of dollars on an "investigation" and came up with... nothing. Claims of widespread mail in voting fraud are 100% bullshit, and either you ignore it or are stupid enough to believe the lies you are being fed because they fit the narrative you already believe.

Defense of liberty, actual liberty, is no vice. I will use deadly force if they come to try and take my rights away, especially if they are in jackboots and believe they have a right to take my life/property away. The law of nature allows me to defend my property or life. Locke specifically stated that government was created to protect people's natural and God given (FSM, whatever) rights. Taking a defensive stand against anarcho-terrorists is not me advocating violence. Its using violence to prevent theft.

I advocate for the individual as I don't believe in group identities as a means for advocating for people. I am not a racist, sexist, or any other "ist." The individual is supreme. That is the correct level of analysis. I do advocate for people to fucking leave if they don't want to participate in our society as it exists. Slight changes to the game are fine, but wholesale throwing out the baby with the bathwater is unacceptable.

Great. I agree on some of your points. I also think that liberty means that people have the right not to be murdered on the street by the government. You know, "due process" for everyone, not just the privileged.

Your obsession with Trump is remarkable. Did GWB do this to you too? I am betting so. You are ideologically possessed. That's fine. I am aware of it and that's all that matters.

I'm not the one who would stand up for him no matter what, when it's extremely obvious he should have never been elected and his administration has been absolutely disastrous for the country. Literally, the worst Q2 GDP contraction in the history of the country, and it's not even close (-32% - like 4x the great depression, makes 2008 look like a party). 150,000 people dead and counting, the worst death rate in the world for Covid-19. The rest of the world and all of our allies now hate us (where before, we were the envy of almost everyone), while Trump sucks up to dictators and fascists. I can't even leave the country or see family across the border, which is like 5 miles away, because they don't want Americans there anymore (you should see the online comments from the Canadians). But you see that as a success? What exactly would you see as a failure then?

I don't blame Trump for the virus, but their response has been absolutely, horribly inept, and the proof is in the many other countries who have responded far better without trying to pretend everything is just fine. GWB failed at Hurricane Katrina, which only affected a small part of the country. This time, that ineptitude is affecting the entire nation. BTW, he was the least popular president in history when he left office in 2008, yet people still like him more than Trump. Think about that.

No, I believe in everyone's right to exist, do the best they can with what they have, use every advantage life affords them and the right for people to defend their property and livelihood.

You believe that until you don't. I think that the 150,000+ dead people had a right to exist and that the Trump administration's totally inept and incompetent non-response was directly responsible for a large portion of those deaths. You believe people have a right to exist until they're murdered, on camera, in broad daylight, by officers of the law. And you wonder why people are pissed, rioting and protesting? What did you expect to happen?

What have I said that is hate speech? Who am I intimidating with the 2nd Amendment? decay doesn't seem intimidated. Are you?

I don't believe you're anything other than a keyboard troll, honestly. No, I'm not intimidated by your veiled threats, but I'm aware when you brandish your firearm (and even the fact that you own one), that's exactly the point you're trying to make.

[nando]

ROFL -

https://www.chicagotribune.com/colum...coa-story.html

Column: Trump’s right, schools must reopen. We just need kids to promise they won’t get the coronavirus.


By REX HUPPKE
CHICAGO TRIBUNE |
AUG 05, 2020 AT 5:00 AM

President Donald Trump arrives for a signing ceremony in the East Room of the White House on Aug. 4, 2020. (Drew Angerer/Getty)

As President Donald Trump has said, we must reopen America’s schools, and it can be done with 100% safety as long as children promise to patriotically not get the coronavirus.

I’ll explain how that’s done in a moment, but first, let’s look at the facts.

If we want our country to get back to normal and our children to learn the basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, we must, as President Trump tweeted this week, “OPEN THE SCHOOLS!!!” That’s as obvious as “2 + 2 = the Earth is flat.”

Is the coronavirus still spreading at a disturbingly high rate? Yes, if you believe in “numbers” and follow lame-o liberal logic that assumes it’s bad for something to be “disturbingly high.”

Did 260 children and staff members at a Georgia summer camp get diagnosed with COVID-19 last month? Yes, but that wholly overlooks the fact that there are literally millions of Americans who were not at that summer camp (or in Georgia) who remained coronavirus-free.

On the very first day of classes at a middle school in Indiana last week, did one of the students test positive for the virus? Yes. But concern over that issue totally ignores the fact that the student probably didn’t try hard enough to not get the virus in the first place.

President Trump framed this coronavirus reality smartly in an interview this week with Axios. He was asked about the fact that a thousand Americans a day are dying of COVID-19, and he said: “It is what it is.”

Precisely. It is what it is, and it wouldn’t be what it is if those thousand or so Americans a day would stop dying of COVID-19. How can you blame the president of the United States for people’s unwillingness to not die? If anything, it’s a bit selfish of the more than 150,000 people who refused to stay alive, because frankly, it’s making President Trump look terrible.

And that’s why the president is pushing so hard for schools to reopen. He cares deeply about ignoring the virus and expects all Americans, young and old, to come together, ignore science and other radical left-wing concepts like “common sense” and pretend life is back to normal. Should you get sick or die, that’s on you, and it is what it is.

To prepare your (expendable) children for in-person classes, you have to be sure they understand how patriotism can protect them from the coronavirus.

First off, they have to believe in President Donald Trump. More than they believe in Santa Claus. More than they believe that Hillary Clinton has killed many people and is secretly Barack Obama’s Muslim mother.

Next, they need to not catch the coronavirus. Catching the coronavirus is VERY unpatriotic and an insult to our great president. (If it leads to any deaths, it is what it is. What are you gonna do about it?)

One Sean Hannity-approved way for kids to fight off the coronavirus is to focus on the respiratory droplets that will undoubtedly fill the crowded hallways of every open school. Imagine that each potentially coronavirus-infected droplet is a radical leftist protester hellbent on destroying America with health care and racial equality.

Your job is to avoid those dangerous protesters, and to only exhale. Pretend you’re an unmarked federal agent and you’re exhaling billowing clouds of beautiful tear gas at all those ornery anarchists. It’s fun, and you only have to resist inhaling until the bus drops you home in the afternoon! (If you lack the lung capacity to hold your breath for eight hours, then you don’t love America and it is what it is.)

I know what you’re saying: “Sure, this all makes perfect sense and is guaranteed to protect school kids, but what about the teachers and other adults who work in schools?”

Hey, I hear you, intelligent person who has read this far and is intrigued by my line of thinking. The answer is simple: Teachers and other adults who work in schools need to also not get the coronavirus.

At the risk of being sued by Nike, “Just DON’T do it! (Or you will get a deadly respiratory disease and likely exacerbate the spread of that disease in your community, plunging America into an unending cycle of lockdowns and sickness.)”

If we all support our president, unite and agree to not get infected and die, we can bring America’s schools and America’s way of life roaring back by going about our days without breathing in.

It’s as easy as 1, 2, 5.

And if it’s not, it is what it is.

rhuppke@chicagotribune.com

FWIW, there will be no in person school here. It sucks, honestly, but I'd rather that than have my kids get sick and die.

I wonder, how many of you guys have school age kids?