Trump Thread 2.0

[CarpHunter]

Let's put this in question form. Out of all of America's socialist programs, which ones would you personally go without?

Public education? You gonna home school or pay for private?

Fire and police? How bout the military?

The infrastructure that brings clean water, electricity? You gonna go totally off grid?

Public roads, highways, ect...?

Gonna pay those medical bills out of pocket? Any form of insurance is socialism after all.

Can't have any medical research either, that's tax payer funded, ie socialism.

Can't use anything that runs on gas, cause they get subsidies, ie socialism.

I could go on and on. Cause the fact of the matter is the only thing seperating america from a third world nation is socialism. Whether you guys like it or not.

So again, Americans love socialism, they just don't like certain people benefiting from it. It's funny that those most against it, are those that use and benefit from it the most.

[mbonder]

A "democratic socialist" is just a moniker to attempt to fool stupid people into thinking the ideas differ in some meaningful way from scary "traditional Socialism" In which they dont........ So your point here is just what ????

My point was that just because Bernie Sanders has multiple homes and calls himself a Democratic Socialist doesn't mean he's lost any of his integrity.

[mrsleeve]

WTF are you going on about here, Socialism is a economic structure where the means of production is concentrated in the halls of Govt...... I think there is a bit of fundamental misunderstanding going on here and its not the way you imply. Thank you for asking about the wifes issues, she is improving slowly and has a long ways to go but we are confident that she will recover with out much permanent damage.

Let's put this in question form. Out of all of America's socialist programs, which ones would you personally go without?

Just because a govt is providing a service with in the scope of its intended purpose does not socialism make... Have you ever read the US Constitution???? Most of what your going on about falls under the preamble of the Constitution.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Public education? You gonna home school or pay for private?


Fire and police? How bout the military?

Those are things that are common to all forms of govt, from Communism to Capitalism they are central to the establishment of any system of governance and part of that pesky preamble quoted above. The US public education system thanks to W and no child left behind has lost a lot of ground in its ability to educate individuals by "standardization" and thus you have a minor point in more recent years and why if my wife and I were to ever have children they would attend private school or the wife would home school them.

The infrastructure that brings clean water, electricity? You gonna go totally off grid?
Public roads, highways, ect...?

Again part of that pesky general welfare, clause. Lots of clean water pumped out of the ground though private wells on individuals property, electricity was deemed part the general welfare of rural communities in the 1930s and thousands of PRIVATE utility companies were paid public dollars to run utilities to far flung communities or individual customers same with phone and by default ISP's could bring dial up internet speeds to anyone that has a land line..... It was a good investment of public dollars to help modernize the entire country and make it what it is, that does not equate to socialism, the govt didn't usurp the means of production it incentivized the private sector to serve more individuals, that would have otherwise been left by the way side. Clean water, and sanitation in more urban areas are also a corner stone to the general welfare of the people even the greeks recognized this

Roads and infrastructure add too and aid in prosperity of all, everyone benefits from them, and have allowed all developed nations to flourish with the ability to move goods and people quickly, effectively, and safely again part of that domestic tranquility, common defense (the Eisenhower interstate system) and just general welfare, all things called for in our opening lines of the Constitution.....

Gonna pay those medical bills out of pocket? Any form of insurance is socialism after all.

WTF........... This is the most false statement of the bunch. We have private heath care in the US, while not perfect and fraught with its own pitfalls and imperfections the private insurance system is in no way a form of Socialism how can it be, its not a form of government. Its private companies offering services for a fee, and since it deals in lots of variables those companies aggregate that risk over as large a group as possible. No one holds a gun to my head and forces me to chose one provider or plan over another, I can make the choice for my self and my family and whats best for us when it comes to our health care arrangements. While my employer provided plan is excellent and cost effective for my family, no one forces us to use or chose it over anything else. Again private companies providing services, not the govt taking over the means of production so your assessment of Socialism is beyond disingenuous to anyone that reads this and takes your comments with any seriousness.

Can't have any medical research either, that's tax payer funded, ie socialism.

HUH, there are hundreds if not thousands of private medical research groups and facilities in the world not just the USA, ffs what are you on.....

Can't use anything that runs on gas, cause they get subsidies, ie socialism.

HUH.... this one is so oft repeated but never substantiated... WHERE do you guys keep coming up with this, in the USA the govt (federal especially) makes more money on Oil/gas than Big oil does. Every barrel imported or produced is taxed by the feds, when its transported, any time it changes hands, or when its sold its taxed, govt get better lease and royalties rate than private land holders .............. Oil and gas infrastructure projects are PRIVATELY funded there are no govt/publicly funded pipelines, drilling or extraction operations in the us that I know of, in fact its the the oil and gas business that funds lots of "socialist policy" though out the world UAE, and Saudis come to mind right off the bat. In the US there are NO govt run oil companies they are all private industry so again the Govt is not taking the means of production over so there for can NOT be a "socialist" contrivance

I could go on and on. Cause the fact of the matter is the only thing seperating america from a third world nation is socialism. Whether you guys like it or not.

So can I, yes there is some socialist policy with in the usa, none of which you have highlighted or even touched on in this post. most of the policy your looking for stems from the great FDR's New Deal,

[CarpHunter]

Oh my God Sleeve. Are you completely unable to have a discussion. You do this constantly, too borrow one of your favorite line's "you're missing the forest for the trees". You constantly focus on one tiny fraction of a sentence while missing the entirety of the subject. Then go on some pointless diatribe about semantics trying to make yourself seem right. Somehow feeling like you won. All the while never addressing the actual subject. You do this everytime theres a gun discussion. Focusing on semantics, "it's not an assault rifle". Or how you take a paragraph and a half of text in the 2a and only repeat half of one sentence, ignoring the rest.

At no point were we talking about the classically defined economic policy of socialism. We're talking about the basic definition of socialism. As in individual people pooling resources for the betterment of the whole. At its most basic, anything your tax dollars pay for is socialism. Just cause you won't admit that doesn't change it. This also includes systems like unions, which I assume you're part of considering the occupation. Maybe your issue is that you can't admit that you've benefited from socialism, cause then you'd have to admit your wrong on some stuff.

At the end of the day you either care enough about your country to have legit and honest discussions about issues that are destroying your country, or you don't. And you my friend don't, you've made that abundantly clear time and time again.

The reality of things is the u.s. the has the worst healthcare system of any developed country. That's a fact, no amount semantics changes that. Your country ranks I believe 37th globally. While the top 25 spots are countries with socialized healthcare. That would mean your ducking wrong. Socialism works when run properly. No debate needed. Same goes with education, and any other metrics.

For the record, I've lived and worked in 7 different nations, on 4 continents. That gives me a perspective you'll never have, cause you've never been outside the bubble that is the u.s.. I've first hand experienced this so called dirty socialism you cry about. Never meet anyone that would change to what america has for healthcare or education.

[CarpHunter]

Just because a govt is providing a service with in the scope of its intended purpose does not socialism make... Have you ever read the US Constitution???? Most of what your going on about falls under the preamble of the Constitution.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There was no healthcare system when the constitution was written. They could put something in that never existed for them. No frame of referance. Had they put a specific clause in would you be singing a different tune? Altho one could argue health and education are large parts of "general welfare". After all a healthy and educated populace is a benefit to a nation.

Those are things that are common to all forms of govt, from Communism to Capitalism they are central to the establishment of any system of governance and part of that pesky preamble quoted above. The US public education system thanks to W and no child left behind has lost a lot of ground in its ability to educate individuals by "standardization" and thus you have a minor point in more recent years and why if my wife and I were to ever have children they would attend private school or the wife would home school them.

Education is hardly a given, or central to a society. There are still countries with no standardized educational systems. A good example would be PolPot, who purposely slaughtered intellectuals as education was seen as a negative to his keeping power. Yet they still had government and capitalism. If you yourself say it's important to a nation, wouldn't making education easier to attain be better than putting up financial barriers? I.E. "free college".

WTF........... This is the most false statement of the bunch. We have private heath care in the US, while not perfect and fraught with its own pitfalls and imperfections the private insurance system is in no way a form of Socialism how can it be, its not a form of government. Its private companies offering services for a fee, and since it deals in lots of variables those companies aggregate that risk over as large a group as possible. No one holds a gun to my head and forces me to chose one provider or plan over another, I can make the choice for my self and my family and whats best for us when it comes to our health care arrangements. While my employer provided plan is excellent and cost effective for my family, no one forces us to use or chose it over anything else. Again private companies providing services, not the govt taking over the means of production so your assessment of Socialism is beyond disingenuous to anyone that reads this and takes your comments with any seriousness.

Private insurance is still socialism. It's still a group of people paying in to spread the costs. The only difference is in america, it's private companies, in the rest of the world it's the government. That's all. It's not some big convoluted thing. Instead of paying out of your check to a private company, you pay out of your check in a tax to the government. Which is a fraction of what you pay to private companies, and you get better treatment. How is that bad?

Had you payed 100% out of pocket, then you could say you didn't benefit from socialism. To a point...

HUH, there are hundreds if not thousands of private medical research groups and facilities in the world not just the USA, ffs what are you on.....

And here's that point. Learn how medical research is done in america. Here's the basics. Tax money goes towards initial research, i.e socialism, then pharma comes in looks over what everyone had come up with. If it's something they see profit in, they take it, if not, they leave it. You ever stopped to wonder why all they're making is treatments for minor ailments and not cures for major diseases? How much profit is there in curing cancer vs treating it?

Think about this, you support a system that point blank put a price on your wife's life. Cause there's more than likely a cure sitting on a shelf some where that big pharma didn't see profit in, so they left it there to collect dust.

It all comes down to choices Sleeve. Move some from column a to column b. Prioritizing health and education over greed and war. American people over corporate profits. It's just choices. You can't say you care about your nation, while also saying you don't give a fuck about the people of your nation.

[mbonder]

WTF are you going on about here, Socialism is a economic structure where the means of production is concentrated in the halls of Govt...... I think there is a bit of fundamental misunderstanding going on here and its not the way you imply. Thank you for asking about the wifes issues, she is improving slowly and has a long ways to go but we are confident that she will recover with out much permanent damage.



Just because a govt is providing a service with in the scope of its intended purpose does not socialism make... Have you ever read the US Constitution???? Most of what your going on about falls under the preamble of the Constitution.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There are different types of socialism, since it's inception there have been adaptations that have changed/modified the original concept. That's why I defined Bernie's position/ideology as Democratic Socialism, rather than simply socialism, there is a difference.

Also, I love that you can use a liberal interpretation of the Constitution to justify everything that you wrote below but then when it's convenient to do so, you have a strict interpretation of it (ie: 2A).

I'm not getting into a battle, I'll leave that to Carp, but these things needed to be pointed out.

[Massive Lee]

Unpaid bills pile up in Trump rallies’ wake

" It isn’t the first time Trump, a businessman with a global real estate empire, has faced accusations that he didn’t pay his bills. The complaints from local governments echo decades of accusations by private contractors who claim that Trump didn’t adequately compensate them for their work before he was sworn into office."

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/trump-rallies-unpaid-bills-039631

[GG///M3]

Can’t wait to vote Trump2020 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phillipj]

> General Population Prison.

[myinfernalbmw]

Patriotism boner erectifies at news of Trey Gowdy joining Trump legal team.

[Massive Lee]

Can’t wait to vote Trump2020 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seems like your tribalism makes you blind of a president that depicts himself as above the law and the Constitution... Happily you belong to a group that shrinks by the week. ;-)

[Aleman]

Unpaid bills pile up in Trump rallies’ wake

" It isn’t the first time Trump, a businessman with a global real estate empire, has faced accusations that he didn’t pay his bills. The complaints from local governments echo decades of accusations by private contractors who claim that Trump didn’t adequately compensate them for their work before he was sworn into office."

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...d-bills-039631

Many people in Atlantic City are pissed at Trump, because he had a nasty habit of not paying outstanding local contractor bills. When he left town, they all got screwed over. Not kosher, dude.

[Massive Lee]

Many people in Atlantic City are pissed at Trump, because he had a nasty habit of not paying outstanding local contractor bills. When he left town, they all got screwed over. Not kosher, dude.

Not to mention that many cities, such as El Paso, were never paid by the organizers for Trump's rallye. There's almost $1 billion in outstanding bills from different cities where Trump rallies were hosted. It's funny as now most mayors in the US know that Trump won't be paying his bills. And when a mayor presents a bill for renting an arena and all security/police services around a rallye, Trump lashes at them...

"Trump’s campaign had already floated legal action against the Target Center in downtown Minneapolis for seeking to pass on the security-related costs and threatening to withhold access to the venue. The president’s tweet, however, marked the most dramatic escalation in the new feud with Frey’s government and came as a surprise to the mayor himself."

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/donald-trump-jacob-frey-minneapolis-tweets-043881

[Massive Lee]

Trump 2020 either way. Hi Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looking at how fast he's heading the exit door, chances are that you might be disappointed... ;-)

[Massive Lee]

Arrests have started after the Ukraine subterfuge has exploded in Trump's face.
Two Ukrainians that had illegally funneled foreign money into the Trump campaign were trying to flee the country but got arrested. Rudy might be next to be indicted.
In the coming days, Trump will probably claim he doesn't know Giuliani...

McConnell, Graham and several other Republican senators have started disavowing Trump. He's losing key support when he needs it the most...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxYZmgRlUcs