Let’s talk about Antifa.

[coldweatherblue]

no. the alternative you are presenting is entirely hypothetical, and shaped to *your* narrative; and so you're doing the exact thing you're finger-pointing at me about. i am discussing actual events, or trying to, anyway.

If I state that something is hypothetical, then directly following make an entirely hypothetical statement, it should really be obvious that I know the statement is hypothetical and am stating it for the sake of discussion.

[frankenbeemer]

how about that last link i dropped at Wagen's request?

I read it. How does it support your position?

[frankenbeemer]

no. the alternative you are presenting is entirely hypothetical, and shaped to *your* narrative; and so you're doing the exact thing you're finger-pointing at me about. i am discussing actual events, or trying to, anyway.

i suppose you shouldn't expect a sensible reply to a nonsensical post. that part, at least, is reasonable.

It's a perfectly sensible post and accurately predicts the position you seem to have adopted despite your reluctance or inability to define or defend it.

[frankenbeemer]

Your premise that US involvement in Latin American affairs during the Cold War is a primary cause of the current migration movement and thus worthy of derision implies that in the hypothetical situation that the US was NOT involved 30-100 years ago in these regime changes that the migrant situation would've been avoided.

This is impossible to prove as it's purely hypothetical and thus fits ANTIFA's purposes.

I would argue that had South and Central America devolved into various Communist and Socialist regimes within the Russia/China sphere of geopolitical influence, that part of the world would much more resemble the Middle East or sub-Saharan Africa in the modern day in terms of stability, and would've resulted in a hundred or so million unnecessary civilian casualties.

Of note, I do not expect a sensible or coherent reply to this post.

Well summarized.

[decay]

no. the alternative you are presenting is entirely hypothetical, and shaped to *your* narrative; and so you're doing the exact thing you're finger-pointing at me about. i am discussing actual events, or trying to, anyway.

i suppose you shouldn't expect a sensible reply to a nonsensical post. that part, at least, is reasonable.

[coldweatherblue]

Your premise that US involvement in Latin American affairs during the Cold War is a primary cause of the current migration movement and thus worthy of derision implies that in the hypothetical situation that the US was NOT involved 30-100 years ago in these regime changes that the migrant situation would've been avoided.

This is impossible to prove as it's purely hypothetical and thus fits ANTIFA's purposes.

I would argue that had South and Central America devolved into various Communist and Socialist regimes within the Russia/China sphere of geopolitical influence, that part of the world would much more resemble the Middle East or sub-Saharan Africa in the modern day in terms of stability, and would've resulted in a hundred or so million unnecessary civilian casualties.

Of note, I do not expect a sensible or coherent reply to this post.

[decay]

Here we are again. Care to propose a resolution for debate?

how about that last link i dropped at Wagen's request?

[frankenbeemer]

then you haven't been paying attention to what i've been saying, because i've already pointed out that our own CIA action is the reason people are fleeing honduras.

it's documented, i posted details about it already, and if you're not going to bother to read my arguments, then no, i don't care about anything else you have to say either, we can just both ignore each other

Apparently not in this thread. Could you clarify where you pointed this out?


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Did you ever figure out where you posted those details?

we can have a discussion about whether the laws responsible for creating our current policy are just and should exist, if you're ready to hear about how our own government created the forced migration problem by destabilizing central america

well, there are actions in quite a few countries to discuss, each of them slightly different, so how about we start with a wikipedia page on the subject and go from there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Latin_America

Here we are again. Care to propose a resolution for debate?

[decay]

I'm ready. I've researched this only briefly, please provide links or references to your sources.

well, there are actions in quite a few countries to discuss, each of them slightly different, so how about we start with a wikipedia page on the subject and go from there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

[E30 Wagen]

we can have a discussion about whether the laws responsible for creating our current policy are just and should exist, if you're ready to hear about how our own government created the forced migration problem by destabilizing central america

I'm ready. I've researched this only briefly, please provide links or references to your sources.

[frankenbeemer]

the nazis ran extermination camps

these are concentration camps- look for other historical examples for a comparison

maybe the way we interned japanese folks during WW2 works for you? those were definitely concentration camps

(though given that people are dying in them, you are almost begging the question of when does it go from the latter to the former)

FYI

Begging the question is not the same as raising the question.

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/reference/examples/begging-the-question-fallacy-examples.html

I know it's a tempting cliche, but such misuse tends to weaken your already fragile argument.

[MrBurgundy]

once again. if you go looking for trouble, you're probably going to find it.

Why don't you apply this logic to people who knowingly enter illegally?

[myinfernalbmw]

so your chosen media outlet didn't show you the part where he was an aggressor because him being a victim fits their narrative better

imagine my surprise

anyway, this was all discussed upthread already

Which I read, but I either missed your supporting argument, or thought that "if you go looking for trouble, you're probably going to find it." may have been an oversimplification. If it's really as simple as that, I don't see how you can squeal injustice when police start popping off CS and blasting people with pepper spray who don't leave after given ample warning.

I don't rely on any specific media outlet. I just searched "man hit by crowbar portland" on youtube. The video I saw started where the old guy was being attacked, and I couldn't find any longer versions, which is why I asked if there was any video showing what you're claiming. I still don't see how you can pretend to maintain any semblance of moral high ground, while continuing to beat someone who is already well on his way to being totally incapacitated.

the nazis ran extermination camps

these are concentration camps- look for other historical examples for a comparison

maybe the way we interned japanese folks during WW2 works for you? those were definitely concentration camps

(though given that people are dying in them, you are almost begging the question of when does it go from the latter to the former)

By the literal Webster definition, sure. The difference being the flagrantly disingenuous intent of its use- as already pointed out. Conflating Nazi death camps to current border detention facilities is laughably idiotic.

[cale]

oh, thank you for pointing out a problem that activists have been working on for decades, that's super insightful

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/index.html

yeah we're already doing that

so your objection is that we're protesting a new flavor of the same problem?

I'm not talking about activists who organize and use the proper channels that actually succeed at effecting change, I'm asking why Antifa isn't taking to the streets of Portland for this purpose? When their sights are time after time set on headline topics, one can't help but develop a lack of respect for a group (or not a group?) who's aspirations are so blatantly shallow and narrowly focused.

[decay]

Yeah.. breaking the law, then getting punished for it is sooo fucked up.

If only there was a way to avoid ending up in there...

...If only...

we can have a discussion about whether the laws responsible for creating our current policy are just and should exist, if you're ready to hear about how our own government created the forced migration problem by destabilizing central america