Let’s talk about Antifa.

[bmwman91]

Fun discussion. Interesting times here. I, and I think most people, are cool with people doing what they can to make the world a little better within their own sphere of influence. The thing that seems to be super divisive is whether or not vigilante physical violence is justified or going to lead anywhere good.

[decay]

If you keep drunks out of their cars, good on you.

I can't take away anyone's keys when they get the kind of sloppy or hostile drunk that gets one ejected, but I always try for "give them a bottle of water and convince them to summon an Uber". Bouncers are not law enforcement and even though a DUI is a felony-in-progress and you're authorized to detain and call 911 for that, you're still putting yourself and the venue at legal risk if the person is already off the premises, and we don't have our own parking lot, so...

It strikes me as being akin to getting really riled up that someone left the toilet seat up while the whole house is on fire.

I'm not a one-issue guy, and me making this thread shouldn't be interpreted as "this is the *only* thing I care about". But as an activist, I can tell you that caring and trying to do something about everything you perceive as wrong is the fastest route to burn-out, frustration, and apathy.

I'm almost surprised that the thread about Standing Rock didn't get you out of lurk status. Most of the people in P&R didn't understand why I did that either.

[MalignantTrinket]

that's a really strange argument, because antifa are not setting ourselves up as any kind of police. we just don't like fascists, and one of the reasons i created this thread was to address how liberally people think we apply that brush. i've made that argument several times throughout the 50 pages of this thread, so forgive some brevity.

fascist activity doesn't mean *just* killing people, and i and other locals take direct action when we think it's justified. you're going to have to read back through the thread for details on that as well, i'm not typing it all over again.



the courts gave him life + 419 years, not us. take it up with them, and i'll continue being happy about it. even if i do call myself an anti-fascist, i still subscribe to the four-box theory: soap, ballot, jury, ammo, in that order. we only needed the 3rd box this time.

ironically, though- i'm working as a bouncer right now, at one of san francisco's major venues. it literally is my job to deal with drunk people, in the context of ensuring that all of our patrons are safe. so i guess i'm sort of doing the thing you suggest?

Yeah, long thread for sure. I read the first and last couple of pages, so maybe I did miss some more detailed explanations from you.

Really, I don't see the point of Antifa if fighting "fascism" is the objective because it's nearly a non-issue in any measurable sense when compared to all of the other ways in which people are routinely killed and terrorized. It strikes me as being akin to getting really riled up that someone left the toilet seat up while the whole house is on fire. But, everyone has to do what they believe is right. Since the thread was asking about people's thoughts on Antifa, I guess that this about sums it up.

And sure, if you are keeping the peace at bars then I guess it makes for a funny coincidence with the thought experiment I was proposing. If you keep drunks out of their cars, good on you. As for the 419+ year sentence, I have no issue to take up. It seems that the justice system worked as intended and the proper outcome was had.

[Schnitzer318is]

Round and round we go. I keep checking in... and the ideas discussed stay the same. Decay, I'm not sure if you are trying to convince US that Antifa is a worthwhile "political" movement... Or if you have so much invested that you are trying to convince YOURSELF that the ends justify the (truly ridiculous) means. And that is assuming there are any "ends." All the ridiculousness could be for nought. As it most likely will be. As mentioned by Trinket, there seems to much more valuable ways to spend your time and energy to accomplish your goals.

BTW, welcome Trinket. Nice to see another voice in this area of the forums.

[decay]

that's a really strange argument, because antifa are not setting ourselves up as any kind of police. we just don't like fascists, and one of the reasons i created this thread was to address how liberally people think we apply that brush. i've made that argument several times throughout the 50 pages of this thread, so forgive some brevity.

fascist activity doesn't mean *just* killing people, and i and other locals take direct action when we think it's justified. you're going to have to read back through the thread for details on that as well, i'm not typing it all over again.

Getting killed by a drunk guy is really just "one of those things", but if the driver is a deranged white supremacist then it is simply a bridge too far?

the courts gave him life + 419 years, not us. take it up with them, and i'll continue being happy about it. even if i do call myself an anti-fascist, i still subscribe to the four-box theory: soap, ballot, jury, ammo, in that order. we only needed the 3rd box this time.

ironically, though- i'm working as a bouncer right now, at one of san francisco's major venues. it literally is my job to deal with drunk people, in the context of ensuring that all of our patrons are safe. so i guess i'm sort of doing the thing you suggest?

[MalignantTrinket]

See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork. The important metric is the current threat. Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).

OK, so self-proclaimed Nazi nutters killed a dozen people in the last year. Self-proclaimed communists didn't get into the news for killing anyone. You seem to be making an argument that Antifa's actions are based on evidence.

By that standard, if the goal is to prevent the unnecessary loss of human life, Antifa would get a LOT more mileage if they hung out outside of bars and kicked drunk people's asses if they got into the driver's seat of a car. Drunk driving kills more people in a single week than "Nazis" have in the last decade. Hell, the ass-kicking isn't even needed since you can just force them to take breathalyzer tests and detain them if they fail and insist on driving.

Based on your forum location thingy, assuming it refers to somewhere near the San Francisco Bay, or maybe a burb of LA, neither of the murders that you referenced happened within 2500 miles of there. I have no issue with claims of my keyboard being an ivory tower because this is a text-based forum and this is a thread where the idea was to discuss what people think about Antifa. There are, I assume, lots of bars around your area, from which drunk drivers emerge and hurt or kill people on a regular basis, so I am not sure what "fieldwork" you refer to when you mention murders thousands of miles away. You could be out beating up drunks in parking lots right NOW in your own community and saving lives.

Or is it more important to consider who is doing the murdering and how than the actual number of murders?
> Getting killed by a drunk guy is really just "one of those things", but if the driver is a deranged white supremacist then it is simply a bridge too far?
> People who drink and drive kill a lot of people but it's really just a matter of perspective whether drunk driving is a problem or not, but anyone who doesn't think that confederate statues should be destroyed is fair game for an ass kicking?



Really, I do get the impression that you want to go out and fight the injustices of the world. There's nothing wrong with that, and most people aren't willing to go out and do it. I just don't see why or how you would need Antifa to work toward that goal, and the entire Antifa thing is so logically fallacious that it's never going to do anything besides create more problems than it solves, with many of those problems being the same ones it claims to be trying to solve.

[decay]

Yeah, while it was not at all an answer to anything that was being discussed, it was a pretty clear answer in another way. I feel like I just saw one of those threads where some kid wants to drift, so they welded the ring to the pinion gear and can't figure out why the car won't move.

I didn't bother answering the rest of what you said, because it was based on a false premise. I addressed that.

[MalignantTrinket]

Your answer is loud and clear, though I don't think you realize how it has come across. Short sighted.

Yeah, while it was not at all an answer to anything that was being discussed, it was a pretty clear answer in another way. I feel like I just saw one of those threads where some kid wants to drift, so they welded the ring to the pinion gear and can't figure out why the car won't move.

[Exodus_2pt0]

See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork.

The important metric is the current threat.

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).

Your answer is loud and clear, though I don't think you realize how it has come across. Short sighted.

[mrsleeve]

Trinket: GOLF CLAP.....

Its not about fighting the Fascist its about suppressing anything they disagree with, by assigning a scary name few people really understand to them. In doing so they give them selves the "moral superiority" and the "justification" in their eyes for the their actions.

Its a self fulfilling cycle based ignorance and those in places pulling the strings taking advantage of generally young, idealistic, "useful idiots" that dont know any better yet, or just those that will never know any better..... To people like that the ends always justify the means, kinda a scary perspective when viewed though your lens.

[MrBurgundy]

See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork.

The important metric is the current threat.

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).

The only "threat" of fascism today is by antifa.

[cale]

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).

Sounds amateurish, communists are much better at killing than that.

[decay]

See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork.

The important metric is the current threat.

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).

[MalignantTrinket]

OP is an anarchist. My feelings on communism should not be hard to extrapolate from there.

What do you want me to do? Convince communists that they *should* like fascism?

I guess if I have to break it down into the kind of simple language that will prevent z31m from getting confused again:

Let's fix the big problem first. After that we'll figure out how much "order and structure" I'll agree to.

For right now: an actual Nazi has just been sentenced to life in prison plus a few hundred years for murdering Heather Heyer, and I'm satisfied with that outcome.

If you got the impression that I was trying to argue that fascism is "better" than communism, then I really don't know where to start. It seemed pretty clear that fascism AND communism are both horrible when judging both by the same metrics. The main metric is, of course, murderousness. Technically, communism actually is worse, but they are both so bad that neither one deserves another try.

What is "the big problem" exactly? If it is "fascists" then it just seems like fabricated nonsense. The number of self-avowed fascists today is ludicrously small, and even if you assume 10x that number are closet-cases, it is still going to be much less than the number of card-carrying communists out there. Seeing as how communism killed something like a hundred million people in less than a century (and that is likely less than the actual total, but communism killed people faster than they could be counted or admitted to by the responsible parties), it seems like a much better candidate for "the big problem" than fascism if reality is actually being observed.

All of that wraps back around to Antifa's stated goals (per the graphic in the OP) and the massive gap that exists between those goals, the "members" ideologies and the actions being undertaken. One can only conclude that Antifa members either don't actually care about whether or not an ideology is murderous as long as it is one they agree with, or that the really have not put any serious thought into the people that they associate with. You align with anarchists, but are part of an organization that has a lot of communists in it. That's like someone being pro-gun-control and claiming to be a hardcore libertarian...it doesn't compute.

Really, just answer these for me:
- Do you disagree that communism is as murderous as fascism?
- If people who fancy themselves fascists can rightly be assaulted due to the threat that they pose to freedom and the sanctity of human life, why are self-avowed communists exempt?

[decay]

OP mentioned that Antifa is made up of a bunch of "progressive radicals", of which a large cohort are self-proclaimed communists.

OP is an anarchist. My feelings on communism should not be hard to extrapolate from there.

What do you want me to do? Convince communists that they *should* like fascism?

I guess if I have to break it down into the kind of simple language that will prevent z31m from getting confused again:

Let's fix the big problem first. After that we'll figure out how much "order and structure" I'll agree to.

For right now: an actual Nazi has just been sentenced to life in prison plus a few hundred years for murdering Heather Heyer, and I'm satisfied with that outcome.