e30 Braces

[Aptyp]

You know, when you make an engineering claim, I expect a whole lot of data to back it up. I mean, if I ever submit my engineering homework with answer without any proof or math and subscribe underneath "I feel like this is correct", i guaranty i will not get an engineering degree. EVER.

Show math, skid-pad results, show high speed (that annoying vibration after 110mph, maybe just me). Show something. I feel like you're full of it, and I can only measure that on BS unit scale.

I would like to get Mason strut bar however. One at Carr looked awesome and very well made, I am kicking my butt for not grabbing it right there and then. Just show proof and you'll sell loads of them, regardless of how shitty your customer service is.

[z31maniac]

110, geez.

Hell I've never had my E30 over 90.

[DCColegrove]

The hard data is that the Front Strut, Rear Strut and Lower X Brace (I was directly involved in the R&D on the Lower X) control the transient chassis flex I found on the shaker better than ANYTHING else available.

I have them on my DD more to prevent things from breaking than anything else, especially the front brace compared to the Sparco which allowed 22mm fore and aft twist (there is some data) compared to the original mason bar that got it down to 7mm (a little more data) under the same stress...

There are a lot of them out there, I'm sure someone will try them on a skid pad eventually.

[DCColegrove]

110, geez.

Hell I've never had my E30 over 90.

Don't tell my wife...

But I had my little silver one up to 140.

[JGood]

OK. Everything I've said so far still stands. I don't buy from people who treat me like shit, and I don't buy products that the engineers sell by saying "Trust me, I know what I'm doing, but I don't want to share the data I have to prove it".

If you are an engineer I know you have a lot more info then a single measurement (I don't even know what you were measuring or if it was useful... for example, a lateral force on a frame rail moving the shock tower in a certain direction may not even occur under normal driving conditions, so it's relatively useless for your bar to excel at that). That's a random and likely incorrect example, but you get the point.

[Quailane]

Just because BMW designed one for the e36's doesn't mean it helps an e30, which doesn't share a single part in common.

So what if it doesn't share any parts? The parts on the car are very similar and function identically.

And I always get a kick out of people saying they can truly feel a difference with strut bars and similar products on the street. Lap times don't change on the track, but somehow the car noticeably "handles better" on the street. Interesting...

I bought an aluminum mason bar for my E36. The difference that made was negligible. I feel like it made a difference in some situations, but I can't say if that was real. However, the difference the cross brace made was quite significant. There was more precision and feeling in the steering wheel.

My only other mods up front were bilstein springs and shocks and 95 M3 CABs.

[JGood]

There was more precision and feeling in the steering wheel.

There was what?

I understand it may help with rigidity in an e36. I understand it may even help the rigidity of an e30. A strut brace, however... that's pushing it. and that's mainly what I was addressing.

[DCColegrove]

OK. Everything I've said so far still stands. I don't buy from people who treat me like shit, and I don't buy products that the engineers sell by saying "Trust me, I know what I'm doing, but I don't want to share the data I have to prove it".

If you are an engineer I know you have a lot more info then a single measurement (I don't even know what you were measuring or if it was useful... for example, a lateral force on a frame rail moving the shock tower in a certain direction may not even occur under normal driving conditions, so it's relatively useless for your bar to excel at that). That's a random and likely incorrect example, but you get the point.

Belive me...I get your point, It is a perspective shared by many and it is familiar.

What most everyone misses is that some of us know exactly what is happening and exactly what conditions it happens under. And in turn know exactly what needs to be done to rectify what is happening.

I have limited time to devote to typing here, I'm on a lunch break.

For me to explain the what why and how would take me hours...

Also, a lot of the what why and how could benefit a competitor... And why would I want to hand him hundreds of hours of R&D for free?

Hopefully you don't feel as though as I'm treating you like shit...I like to think my human interface is just a little better than most Alien Gear-head Techies. If so please accept my apologies...

[JGood]

No, you are not, the other dude is though. I have no problem with you at all, I'm glad you offer these innovative products, as not many people do, and you do frequent these forums and genuinely help from what I've seen.

I think I've thoroughly exhausted my point. I understand your point too. It's all good.

Me, personally, I can't justify purchasing your strut brace with the information I have. If someone turns in some numbers that prove they will help, then hell yeah I will consider it.

Belive me...I get your point, It is a perspective shared by many and it is familiar.

What most everyone misses is that some of us know exactly what is happening and exactly what conditions it happens under. And in turn know exactly what needs to be done to rectify what is happening.

I have limited time to devote to typing here, I'm on a lunch break.

For me to explain the what why and how would take me hours...

Also, a lot of the what why and how could benefit a competitor... And why would I want to hand him hundreds of hours of R&D for free?

Hopefully you don't feel as though as I'm treating you like shit...I like to think my human interface is just a little better than most Alien Gear-head Techies. If so please accept my apologies...

[robrez]

OK. Everything I've said so far still stands. I don't buy from people who treat me like shit.

you pop off with

Tell ya what, if your bar makes me quicker around the track, I pay for it. If not, I send it back. Deal?

Then you complain about being mistreated?!

If you went into Mason's shop and respectfully asked him to explain the performance benefits of his strut bar, he'd happily share his insights with you about the braces, motorsports, and life in general. Then he'd take you out into the canyons so you could get your own impression of the bar. And if you didn't end up buying one he'd still offer you a beer. But if went there and yammered that crap about about "give me bar and I'll tell you if it works," you'd probably leave with more than just your feelings hurt. Add this to your credo bag "Respect is a two way street."

[JGood]

you pop off with
Then you complain about being mistreated?!

If you went into Mason's shop and respectfully asked him to explain the performance benefits of his strut bar, he'd happily share his insights with you about the braces, motorsports, and life in general. Then he'd take you out into the canyons so you could get your own impression of the bar. And if you didn't end up buying one he'd still offer you a beer. But if went there and yammered that crap about about "give me bar and I'll tell you if it works," you'd probably leave with more than just your feelings hurt. Add this to your credo bag "Respect is a two way street."

What did you do, start reading on the last page of this thread? Next time start from the beginning.

I'm not in Mason's shop, I'm on a forum and my original comment was something along the lines of not understanding how people feel strut bar benefits on the street. He then rambled something about people not knowing and not wanting to know, to which I replied I do want to know, hence me buying a bar. Then I made a comment to Colegrove and Mason chimed back in with a ignorant remark towards me.

And beyond that, I was aiming that remark towards Colegrove, who I've had this same extensive conversation with, before you were even a member of this forum. Even further, it was said as a joke, obviously nobody would entertain that offer.

So your entire paragraph of stupidity is void.

[DSP74]

you pop off with
Then you complain about being mistreated?!

If you went into Mason's shop and respectfully asked him to explain the performance benefits of his strut bar, he'd happily share his insights with you about the braces, motorsports, and life in general. Then he'd take you out into the canyons so you could get your own impression of the bar. And if you didn't end up buying one he'd still offer you a beer. But if went there and yammered that crap about about "give me bar and I'll tell you if it works," you'd probably leave with more than just your feelings hurt. Add this to your credo bag "Respect is a two way street."

What in the WORLD are you talking about. Jgood made a valid point in many aspects. I'll second that I'd like to see how a HANDLING improvement is felt on the street. If it isn't even felt on a track or autox course.

Maybe the chassis 'feels' stiffer. How does that equate to handles better?

Obviously you have some sort of personal tie to John Mason. Look at his posts directed towards Jgood. Sorry man but that's not how you sell something. Which was already pointed out.

[Brian D]

No, you are not, the other dude is though.

You seem awfully sure that jjmtools is John Mason, are you sure about that?

Me, personally, I can't justify purchasing your strut brace with the information I have. If someone turns in some numbers that prove they will help, then hell yeah I will consider it.

Did you have numbers quantifying the purchase of your Sparco bar?

[JGood]

You seem awfully sure that jjmtools is John Mason, are you sure about that?

No, I'm not. But I've seen on several other boards where people ask for his contact info and jjmtools@******* is given as his email address and ebay account. I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Did you have numbers quantifying the purchase of your Sparco bar?

No, but I only paid $50 so I didn't need any. Figured I'd take the risk.



Anything else?

[Brian D]

Maybe the chassis 'feels' stiffer. How does that equate to handles better?

I believe the theory is that a stiffer tub or chassis allows the actual suspension to do it's work more effectively, with less unwanted flexing or motion added from the mounting points. Ever notice that new car designs always tout "xx% stiffer chassis" than the outgoing model?