From knowing nothing to having a Thunderbird supercharger on an m20b27i

[FLG]

Middle.

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[Ether-D]

I'm going to say the dog shit is on the left.

We have a winner.

See how thin the metal is at the eccentric end? To the left of the eccentric, the material is about half of the thickness of the oe and the Febi. Middle is the Febi updated one, it has more material to the right of the eccentric. And the far right one is the OE BMW one. See how it's a bit thinner on the right side of the eccentric?

I have 12 of the oe bmw ones in my car now.

[Ether-D]

Oh shit!/Oh boy!

So I decided to do do my intercooler plumbing while I have the hood off. I hooked up the heater hoses to my intake input/output nipples and ran them around the battery and to the front corner of the bay to where I'm gonna put the reservoir. Then I thought to myself "I should blow on one of these hoses and feel air come out of the other one." and it did. Then I thought "I'll plug up one of them and blow on the other and I should feel the pressure build up" but it didn't. It just blew right into the intake manifold somehow. And I was all "Fuck! Now I can't hook up my pump and shit because I clearly have a huge leak.". Then I realized that I must have been loosing quite a bit of my forced air through that hole. Then I realized I'll likely get a decent bit of power when I seal that leak up.

More to come...

[Q5Quint]

Oh shit!/Oh boy!

.....Then I realized I'll likely get a decent bit of power when I seal that leak up.

More to come...

Heck yes- I did the air compressor leakdown test on my charge pipes when I had the turbo- found all kinds of leaks just around the silicon connections etc. Some hairspray and some wiggling and tightening got them fixed. There was also the 1/4" threaded hole in the bottom of the intercooler that I forgot to screw a bolt into..... I am sure I got 1psi more or atleast some better boost response and lower turbine speeds from that.

For the folks who dont believe in water to air.... just do some math.

a 8"x4"x3/4" water-water heat exchanger will do about 22k btu for water to water..... so for the air-water the 14.5"x5"x4.5" makes sense.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=378896

Those guys have some good numbers but it does look like the water cooler unit in front is big as heck... like a/c condenser size.

I would leave everything stock and see if you can nab some transmission coolers off cars at the pick and pull for $5 or something. There is plenty of space behind the grill up there for something small like that without having to move things around.


Proper sizing would be figure out how many BTU that you need dissapate between certain cfm flow rates, figure out the surface area of cooler inside the intake you need, figure out that it is large enough to not block the flow of your intake, then size your external cooling radiator to match a certain % of that btu load. Making it too big wont hurt, since it will just be at ambient temp even if you were at WOT 24/7, but then it and the ex changer in the car might be unreasonably large. Maybe sizing for 75% would be normal, and 100% 'race' or something like that.



From what I can tell though that size difference isnt that big as you might think, since you can fit a lot of surface area into an inch of cooler.

[QUOTE]13.5"x 4"x 3.5" - 350 CFM, 350 HP
14.5"x 5"x 4.5" - 550 CFM, 600 HP
15"x 6.5"x 6" - 1200 CFM, 1200 HP[QUOTE][QUOTE]

Edit- after looking at some of this I might go the water route as well. No valence cutting or getting rid of headlights/brakes/condensors etc. The savings in tube/silicone plus time makes it worth it.

these are $35 for a 5x12x3/4" http://www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/40...oductId=756324

You could try one and if it wasnt enough add in a 2nd.

edit edit: even the $1300 tcd kit seems to use two small external coolers. http://turbochargingdynamics.com/?wp...y=intercoolers
no fans!

[The Dark Side of Will]

Look at what Mustang Cobra and 3800 Supercharged guys are running for their HEX's... That should give your a good idea of what it takes to handle what power level.

[Ether-D]

Well, now I have 7psi peak. I gained a whole psi. I love this car.

The whole, hole in the intake HEX (heat exchanger) is a huge drag, but I'm ok to be at this level for a bit. So, when it gets all hot as the devil's anus this summer, will I be potentially getting into detonation trouble? I reckon I'll have to get the intercooler fixed by then. It won't be a huge deal. I just have to remove the SC and then remove and repair/replace the internal HEX. Then figure out where I'm gonna put the external HEX. Then run the electric and plumbing. It'll be a breeze.

[Ether-D]

Heck yes- I did the air compressor leakdown test on my charge pipes when I had the turbo- found all kinds of leaks just around the silicon connections etc. Some hairspray and some wiggling and tightening got them fixed. There was also the 1/4" threaded hole in the bottom of the intercooler that I forgot to screw a bolt into..... I am sure I got 1psi more or atleast some better boost response and lower turbine speeds from that.

For the folks who dont believe in water to air.... just do some math.

a 8"x4"x3/4" water-water heat exchanger will do about 22k btu for water to water..... so for the air-water the 14.5"x5"x4.5" makes sense.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=378896

Those guys have some good numbers but it does look like the water cooler unit in front is big as heck... like a/c condenser size.

I would leave everything stock and see if you can nab some transmission coolers off cars at the pick and pull for $5 or something. There is plenty of space behind the grill up there for something small like that without having to move things around.


Proper sizing would be figure out how many BTU that you need dissapate between certain cfm flow rates, figure out the surface area of cooler inside the intake you need, figure out that it is large enough to not block the flow of your intake, then size your external cooling radiator to match a certain % of that btu load. Making it too big wont hurt, since it will just be at ambient temp even if you were at WOT 24/7, but then it and the ex changer in the car might be unreasonably large. Maybe sizing for 75% would be normal, and 100% 'race' or something like that.



From what I can tell though that size difference isnt that big as you might think, since you can fit a lot of surface area into an inch of cooler.

13.5"x 4"x 3.5" - 350 CFM, 350 HP
14.5"x 5"x 4.5" - 550 CFM, 600 HP
15"x 6.5"x 6" - 1200 CFM, 1200 HP

Edit- after looking at some of this I might go the water route as well. No valence cutting or getting rid of headlights/brakes/condensors etc. The savings in tube/silicone plus time makes it worth it.

these are $35 for a 5x12x3/4" http://www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/40...oductId=756324

You could try one and if it wasnt enough add in a 2nd.

edit edit: even the $1300 tcd kit seems to use two small external coolers. http://turbochargingdynamics.com/?wp...y=intercoolers
no fans!

That transmission HEX is so awesome. For $35, its perfect...

[Ether-D]

Then I searched on ebay for "transmission cooler". So many options for so cheap. My intake was built around the dimensions of the Koolance HEX that I have, so I'm bound to it for the internal one. On ebay, the $35 (shipped) ones are as big as 10"x12"x3/4". That is officially perfect for a home brew water to air setup. Gonna be sweet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hayden-403-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-/281296685892?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417e96cb44&vxp=mtr

[Q5Quint]

Transmission fluid temps are about the same as water temps- something like 150-200 degs. If you are trying to keep your intake at 90 they should easily be able to bleed off 1/2 the heat IF they have enough surface area inside your intake.

I cant find a correct equation so I just have to make assumptions. Looking at some core sizes and their rated cfm/hp support is the best I can do.

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=214&osCsid=94647bf2e094daae901a3e2e2ff7df90

if a 12.25"x12.25"x4.5" can support " up to 700 CFM / 600 HP" you should be good as long as your pressure drop in your intake isnt killing your performance. The heat exchanger is way easier to suck through than an air filter so I wouldnt think it would.


I think technically the water to air intercooler will be better at stopping heat soak than the air-air. With air-air as soon as you stop moving your intake temps will climb, but with water to air you have to also heat up the water too, so it might buy you a few minutes. However, it will also take a few minutes to cool BACK down once you start moving. A tranny cooler and electric fan is about the best thing you can do I believe. Monitor the intake temp and if it gets to hot- add a second tranny cooler... if it is still too hot.... add a second inline water-air exchanger.

My air-air had me at literally ambient temps with the turbo.... but it was massive. like 24x12x3 massive.

I think a 6x20x2.5 would be ideal for the bottom of the front bumper, but I didn't have the AC in there so not sure how much extra space there would be. Plenty of room for smaller water coolers though up above the bumper.

Here is a really odd shaped one if you want to get weird: http://www.cfrperformance.com/18_FIN.../hz-0052-1.htm

[Q5Quint]

Now I am thinking about plumbing for us non-manifold building folks- so if we come straight up from the charger there is a 90 into the intake manifold.

We could 90 into a water/air intercooler like this: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...1a3e2e2ff7df90
then back up with a 90 into the intake. Sit the water tank right on top and should be good to go with all that in the space behind the headlights where the stock afm was.

Do you have some more photos of your intake plumbing?









haha!

[Ether-D]

This post goes out to Tacoman. I've been reading up on your methanol injection ideas. So are they just like, a miracle or something? Because there seems to be no downside. I believe they are a miracle. You just rig up a spray nozzle to spray whenever it sees a certain psi.

Great info...

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-installation-instructions.html

[kamotors]

yes, meth is the best

[Ether-D]

^Werd!

Do you have some more photos of your intake plumbing?

Sure man, what exactly do you want pics of? I'll put them up.

[TheTacoMan]

Meth is good stuff, the only down side is if your pump breaks and you dont realize it.
Doit.

[Ether-D]

Good point. So why meth blend over straight water? I know it acts as supplemental fuel, but why would I need more fuel? Shouldn't the tune take care of fueling?