From knowing nothing to having a Thunderbird supercharger on an m20b27i

[TheTacoMan]

Good point. So why meth blend over straight water? I know it acts as supplemental fuel, but why would I need more fuel? Shouldn't the tune take care of fueling?

One of the effects of the water when it is atomized is the ability to absorb heat, think of the bottle of water that have a fan for hot summer days, even though the water is a room temperature it feels cold. Methanol raises the the octane of the fuel, I forget by how much but Kamotors might know. Where you gain power is the colder air charge as well as a tune associated with the higher octane.

[kamotors]

methanol is essentially like race gas As far as tuning, You'll need to subtract fuel fromm your table or it will be very rich,wastefull and not make decent power.


"DevilsOwn© Benefits Include:

Increased horsepower safely by 10-15%.
Lowered air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees.
Decreased cylinder temperatures up to 300 degrees.
Reduced effects of heat soak in warmer climates.
Allowable running of more boost and timing safely.
Reduced carbon and assistance maintaining a clean combustion chamber.
Increased octane at user programmable boost levels.

The main function of water methanol injection is to prevent detonation. Detonation is produced by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. In addition, water injection reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, additionally reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. Methanol effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, allowing performance gains when used in supercharged and turbocharged applications. How’s that for a science lesson? You hook it up, and you will see what facts and figures cannot describe adequately: a huge increases in your vehicle’s performance! You can verify the change because you know your vehicle better than anyone else. You won’t be disappointed, you’ll be excited about your performance increases!"

[Scywrath]

I am also interested in water/methanol injection, but I've always read these systems supply the mixture according to PSI. If I have (about) the same amount of boost at 2000 than at 6000, it seems unlikely that I will have appropriate amount of meth injected all the time. Can these systems use injector pulse signals or any other input to determine the required flow?

[Ether-D]

I don't know if they can use the injector signals, that would be one for Whodwho.

What I've noticed about my superchargers' boost is that it's not exactly linear between 2000rpm and 6000rpm. Mine goes from vac to boost as soon as I press the pedal more than 1/4 of the way. But at low rpm (1500-2000) it's at about 3-4psi and around 3000-4000rpm it hits it's sweet spot and gets to about 6-7psi depending on what gear I'm in. Ill try to get a video.

[TheTacoMan]

I am also interested in water/methanol injection, but I've always read these systems supply the mixture according to PSI.

Yes, there are ways to I believe to have variable meth injection I personally havent looked into it. The way mine is setup right now is very simple, its a solenoid that reads boost once it sees 7psi it turns on the pump which in tern injects the meth at a constant rate.

[The Dark Side of Will]

methanol is essentially like race gas As far as tuning, You'll need to subtract fuel fromm your table or it will be very rich,wastefull and not make decent power.


"DevilsOwn© Benefits Include:

Increased horsepower safely by 10-15%.
Lowered air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees.
Decreased cylinder temperatures up to 300 degrees.
Reduced effects of heat soak in warmer climates.
Allowable running of more boost and timing safely.
Reduced carbon and assistance maintaining a clean combustion chamber.
Increased octane at user programmable boost levels.

The main function of water methanol injection is to prevent detonation. Detonation is produced by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. In addition, water injection reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, additionally reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. Methanol effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, allowing performance gains when used in supercharged and turbocharged applications. How’s that for a science lesson? You hook it up, and you will see what facts and figures cannot describe adequately: a huge increases in your vehicle’s performance! You can verify the change because you know your vehicle better than anyone else. You won’t be disappointed, you’ll be excited about your performance increases!"

What are typical relative flow rates of methanol and gasoline in these systems?
Methanol may have 116 octane, but it has a stoich AFR of something like 6:1. AND, if you're injecting 1 g/s of meth and 10 g/s of 93 octane gasoline to use 120 g/s of air, then your octane is 95 even... not counting the variation in stoich AFR. That's an improvement, but not huge. The relative flow rates have to be comparable before you start seeing significant octane increases.

[Ether-D]

I've read a few places that it raises the octane to 116. I don't know how they come to that conclusion though.

[TheTacoMan]

Read this also.

[Q5Quint]

I like you guys.

This is the meth system I saw many moons ago: http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alc...arts-list.html


After looking at these temps and such.... I think for a supercharger running harder than it should you will def want some kind of water squirter in there. I worry about where though. Would it be good to be before the charger to cool it down, or would it shatter like glass? Or heat up enough to catch the methanol on fire?

Then again it would all be essentially steam by the time it actually gets to the engine, so just after the intercooler might be best so it doesnt condense again inside the intercooler.

With the supercharger we are looking at a 150+F increase in temps lol

I am xing off my plans this weekend to fit this bad boy up.

[TheTacoMan]

From what Ive researched injecting meth into the supercharger helps alot but going through an intercooler can cause problems for the atomized methanol and its efficiency. Im planning to inject Pre TB, should be the most efficient there, but in Ether-Ds case the intercooler in the manifold may cause flow issues strictly in terms for atomized methanol.

[Q5Quint]

....but in Ether-Ds case the intercooler in the manifold may cause flow issues strictly in terms for atomized methanol.

Oh crap man- yeah you will be getting serious condensation/drip. Not sure how to not spray it into a single cylinder otherwise though. Maybe just deal with it?

[The Dark Side of Will]

I've read a few places that it raises the octane to 116. I don't know how they come to that conclusion though.

Methanol itself has octane that high or higher.

HOWEVER, mixing methanol and gasoline averages octane just like mixing different grades of gasoline. (maybe a little different due to the different stoich ratio).

[Ether-D]

Oh crap man- yeah you will be getting serious condensation/drip. Not sure how to not spray it into a single cylinder otherwise though. Maybe just deal with it?

Honestly, I'm probably gonna nix the intercooler all together. It's running great right now. I think I'm gonna remove the HEX from the intake and cap off the access hole and just collect the parts for a water/methanol injection system. I mean, I almost never go into boost under normal driving conditions. Only when I'm feeling froggy. Which means intake temps only really rise when I'm getting on it.

**I watched my boost today to see when and what psi it made. I have 2psi at 1500rpm, 3psi at 2000rpm, 4psi at 3000, 5psi at 4000rpm and 7psi at 5000. Then it drops back to 6psi at 5500.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Go for the intercooler and pulley it for 12 psi ;)

[Ether-D]

Go for the intercooler and pulley it for 12 psi ;)

I may after I get another DD, but for now, this one has plenty of power. Also since it builds the boost up to 7 and then trails off, doesn't that mean I'm already in the "efficiency island" of the m90? I feel like if I pulley it up, it would just make more boost earlier and trail off earlier. Or am I just witnessing my engines' volumetric efficiency by way of my boost gauge?