Let's see how much m20 heads suck.

[ForcedFirebird]

Roughly looking at the serial numbers, I've done about ~2 dozen in the ~3yr they have been getting stamped.

[digger]

That’s not my point, this is: How many of those engines go into E30s per year?

I don’t know but I was quoted 5.5k usd to digitise a m20 head that was hand ported and it was 1200 to machine each subsequent head so it’s not a huge initial investment so you don’t need to sell that many to recover costs

. If I was in the USA I would have done it by now, not to get rich as you won’t get rich doing product development but to bring good products to market

it’s not really any different to Rama bringing the RHD itb kit to market

[moatilliatta]

I wonder if 100 properly ported m20s are done country wide.

Proper standalone, port work is ready the difference from kids to adults.

[varg]

how much do you think the guys building 2.9L with hand ported head, ITB and standalone etc have in their engine......?

That’s not my point, this is: How many of those engines go into E30s per year?

[digger]

It's fun to dream but FWIW guys, the most basic reputable CNC porting service, with the economy of scale of the LS world, is around $1,000 for a pair. There is no engine in the world that receives aftermarket CNC porting as often as the LS platform, they probably port more LS heads in a week than WOT does total heads in a year. I don't think there's a way you could make CNC porting for M20 heads something that anyone but the fattest wallets among us would even consider, just like the "full monty" manual port job is now. 5-axis machine time isn't cheap, I've seen the costs from the engineering side, and you don't get crazy volume discounts doing 10 M20 heads per year... Sure you can CNC port a head without a 5 axis machine if you make fixtures to hold the head in the required positions for the various operations in the process, but that's a lot more labor intensive and those man hours, precision fixture construction, machine time, add up fast. There's more to it than just the head, you might think oh yeah I'd pay $3,000 for a top notch ported M20 head, but that head is going to be a waste if you don't have either a ported/custom intake manifold or ITBs, and that's all a waste if you don't have a bottom end built to take advantage of all of that breathing. Be honest, how many among you are going to put a $12,000 engine in your E30? Now bump that up by $4,000 if you got that trick roller setup.

how much do you think the guys building 2.9L with hand ported head, ITB and standalone etc have in their engine......?

[varg]

It's fun to dream but FWIW guys, the most basic reputable CNC porting service, with the economy of scale of the LS world, is around $1,000 for a pair. There is no engine in the world that receives aftermarket CNC porting as often as the LS platform, they probably port more LS heads in a week than WOT does total heads in a year. I don't think there's a way you could make CNC porting for M20 heads something that anyone but the fattest wallets among us would even consider, just like the "full monty" manual port job is now. 5-axis machine time isn't cheap, I've seen the costs from the engineering side, and you don't get crazy volume discounts doing 10 M20 heads per year... Sure you can CNC port a head without a 5 axis machine if you make fixtures to hold the head in the required positions for the various operations in the process, but that's a lot more labor intensive and those man hours, precision fixture construction, machine time, add up fast. There's more to it than just the head, you might think oh yeah I'd pay $3,000 for a top notch ported M20 head, but that head is going to be a waste if you don't have either a ported/custom intake manifold or ITBs, and that's all a waste if you don't have a bottom end built to take advantage of all of that breathing. Be honest, how many among you are going to put a $12,000 engine in your E30? Now bump that up by $4,000 if you got that trick roller setup.

[hasa]

Are the head casting dimensions accurate/consistent enough for the CNC porting? Billet head would be superb product...

[Digitalwave]

I think there would be a market for it too if it could be streamlined. Price could come down a little and you could produce them with far less effort. Assuming that doing it by automation is even possible.

[zaq123]

Seems to be a fair few that buy those pretend race heads, stage 9 head, et al from places that shall remain nameless. it would just take one dyno with a proper port job to show what it can do and they will sell like the RHD itb kits.

yes...I think it's getting obvious that e30 moved into a different level where swaps are not as popular and some pay premium to keep the car mostly original with some discreet performance upgrades

[digger]

Perhaps one day. It's not like there's one a month that wants this kind of work - more like 3x a year or so.

Seems to be a fair few that buy those pretend race heads, stage 9 head, et al from places that shall remain nameless. it would just take one dyno with a proper port job to show what it can do and they will sell like the RHD itb kits.

[zaq123]

hahaha yes indeed. There is already the RHD roller setup, though. If that was brought into a more accessible price range I think a ton of people would go for it and reap the benefits.

$3.5K for that kit is not a bad price for the right car IMHO. The right car being $35k+ prestine M20 E30 ....or all out race monster (if those are allowed in whatever group one is in).
24V would be totally another level....ala M50.

However as years go by,... 12V M20 has its own charm.

[AWDBOB]

He needs to reproduce M20 unicorn 24V head/cam/rockers that RD supposedly created at some point and he will be the star of M20 world forever in m20 world history. ..the legacy

hahaha yes indeed. There is already the RHD roller setup, though. If that was brought into a more accessible price range I think a ton of people would go for it and reap the benefits.

[AWDBOB]

Perhaps one day. It's not like there's one a month that wants this kind of work - more like 3x a year or so.

I suspect that desire would change if the product was available and it was marketed well. My guy in Indiana literally only does cylinder heads for a living and has enough work to keep him busy for 10 years, and only accepts local work.

If you could churn out a head a week and you didn't have 25hrs of labor into one head it would be a beautiful thing for both you and the customer.

[zaq123]

Have you ever considered developing an ideal 885 port job and then drawing it so it could be CNC cut? I feel like M20 head work is one of the bigger limiting factors in n/a stroker builds and there only seems to be 1-2 good solutions in the entire country (yours included obviously). Making a CNC port package with proven flow/results could be an amazing seller, and cut your labor down dramatically while being able to make a killer product more accessible.

He needs to reproduce M20 unicorn 24V head/cam/rockers that RD supposedly created at some point and he will be the star of M20 world forever in m20 world history. ..the legacy

[ForcedFirebird]

Perhaps one day. It's not like there's one a month that wants this kind of work - more like 3x a year or so.