The 5 lug swap truth thread!!!!!!!!!!

[itskingsteelo]

ive been reading up on it and there seems to be alot of talk on how the front set up will have problems and the car will handle funny, whats your input.

[bimmer630]

I have been running
-E36 M3 96-up arms
-E30 offset m3 bushings
-E36 M3 knuckles and brakes
-Ground control adjustable camber/caster plates mounted to non-M front struts with GC coil over conversion
-Z3 6cyl rear hubs, brakes
-E36 steering rack

16x8 BBS wheels with 225/45r16 tires

...And my car feels stable and safe at ALL SPEEDS.
I tracked it (before my S50 swap) and it did GREAT, (it had better lap times than $100,000 pro touring camaros..hehe)

My front wheels are centered


It seems like the guys that say this swap is wrong, are the guys who forget to use M3 knuckles, etc.....
YOU HAVE TO HAVE ALL M3 E36 stuff (96-up) or it will be wrong

Are guys who have all of these parts still unhappy with their swaps?

[clavinZERO]

I have been running
-E36 M3 96-up arms
-E30 offset m3 bushings
-E36 M3 knuckles and brakes
-Ground control adjustable camber/caster plates mounted to non-M front struts with GC coil over conversion
-Z3 6cyl rear hubs, brakes
-E36 steering rack

16x8 BBS wheels with 225/45r16 tires

...And my car feels stable and safe at ALL SPEEDS.
I tracked it (before my S50 swap) and it did GREAT, (it had better lap times than 100,000 pro touring camaros..hehe)

My front wheels are centered


It seems like the guys that say this swap is wrong, are the guys who forget to use M3 knuckles, etc.....
YOU HAVE TO HAVE ALL M3 E36 stuff (96-up) or it will be wrong

Are guys who have all of these parts still unhappy with their swaps?

Similare experience here as well.

[bimmer630]

Clavin, I actually copied your setup in a way... I definitely read your threads a lot before doing my 5 lug

[Whit3 E30]

So I know this is a really really old thread, but I have a question. I have a 1984 318i with the M10B18 and G240. I have put money into the M10 and will eventually need to 5 lug swap it for bigger brakes from a E36(going to boost it, expecting 300+ hp and 200+ Tq). I have already changed the suspension and brakes front and rear, taken from a 1991 318is. So rear subframe, trailing arms, brakes, ect. Front struts and brakes ect. are all from a 1991 318is, then I bought brand new 84' 318i lower control arms. So now that most of the background information is out there, here is my question. To do a 5 lug conversion, could I use 96'+ non-M Z3 front struts and knuckles, brakes , ect. then a adjustable top plate for e30, with stock e30 non-M lower control arms with a offset solid control arm bushing for the front? Then the rear could I use again 96'+ non M Z3 rear hubs n bearings an brakes? (I Don't know if they use the same size bearings as the 91' iS.) Then get a bracket made for the brake calipers on the 91 rear subframe trailing arms. Or should I just take both trailing arms with brakes and stuff still attached and install them on the 91' Is rear subframe? Could this work as a 5 lug conversion???? Please help!! Or tell me what I'm missing from the setup??

[atmh]

So I know this is a really really old thread, but I have a question. I have a 1984 318i with the M10B18 and G240. I have put money into the M10 and will eventually need to 5 lug swap it for bigger brakes from a E36(going to boost it, expecting 300+ hp and 200+ Tq). I have already changed the suspension and brakes front and rear, taken from a 1991 318is. So rear subframe, trailing arms, brakes, ect. Front struts and brakes ect. are all from a 1991 318is, then I bought brand new 84' 318i lower control arms. So now that most of the background information is out there, here is my question. To do a 5 lug conversion, could I use 96'+ non-M Z3 front struts and knuckles, brakes , ect. then a adjustable top plate for e30, with stock e30 non-M lower control arms with a offset solid control arm bushing for the front? Then the rear could I use again 96'+ non M Z3 rear hubs n bearings an brakes? (I Don't know if they use the same size bearings as the 91' iS.) Then get a bracket made for the brake calipers on the 91 rear subframe trailing arms. Or should I just take both trailing arms with brakes and stuff still attached and install them on the 91' Is rear subframe? Could this work as a 5 lug conversion???? Please help!! Or tell me what I'm missing from the setup??

I'm also currently working on this swap, my understanding is as follows:

The "only" front setup that works with e36 bits is to use 1996+ e36 M (identical to Z3M) stuff. You have to use the control arm, spindle, and the hubs to get the right geometry, and an adjustable caster plate might also be required. You need an "offset" control arm bushing to get the wheel centered in the wheel well properly. If I understand correclty, there's no way to get non-M e36 stuff to work without really messing up the front geometry. I plan on analyzing the front suspension when I do my swap so I can see for real how everything changes with this swap.

For the rear it seems like there's a lot more options that work. e36 318Ti trailing arms and hubs are a direct swap, I believe. the 4-cyl "narrow body" Z3 TAs also work. The "wide body" Z3 stuff adds too much offset. I believe the Z3M adds less offset (20mm) so you need ET40 wheels in the back, but the rear Z3M TAs are extremely expensive these days, so not worth it IMHO. My original plan was to use Z3M stuff so I could get the beefy halfshafts and bigger brakes, but the TAs are so expensive I'm changing course, and even thinking of abandoning 5-lug swap all together since the benefits are hardly there. There's a guy selling brake relocation brackets to use e46 calipers and rotors, on Z4 hubs. The Z4 apparently is only +2.3mm or something like that (nearly inconsequential additional offset), and this is the new path I'm looking into.

Doing all the research I've done at this point it really does seem like the smart thing to do is just run an e30 big brake kit, if the goal is bigger brakes. The only tangible benefit from 5-lug swap might be that you can get a vented rear rotor, and I don't really know if that's worth it. Lots of time and $$$ for not much in return.

Having said all that, I'm going for a sleeper build, so OE brakes and OE wheels are pretty relevant to that overall look, so the e38 Style 5 16" wheels and OEM brakes are strongly preferred for me than an aftermarket big brake kit, which is more or less the only reason I'm still pursuing this. If I didn't care about the OE look I would probably go for a big brake kit and appropriately sized 4-lug wheels and call it a day.

[moatilliatta]

When this thread was popular I never had a chance to build any of this stuff. And now I do,and much better understand of how suspension works. Centered wheel has nothing to do alignment. And the problem is the E36M stuff has more castor trail. So Its a balance of correct suspension points top and lower of strut to offset the extra caster trail.

I have Z3M Trailing trailing arms, And not sure if I had a set of wacky ones. But in stock form they had major tow out. Others don't seem to really align their car, and not much feed back out there. The larger bearings and stub axles are a plus. But the rear is like an inch wider. that means you'll need 12.5MM to get a matching / wider front track.

Back to the front.. The wheel is just a pivot point, set the caster and the pickup points now mark them selves. This is how I got down to 7.5* castor from 11.75* with ADJ control arms. Trial and Tribulations can be seen in my build thread.
96+ M3 Knuckes, MRT DTM style CA with roll center, Vink motorsports, and the camber plate explains itself.

[Whit3 E30]

I'm also currently working on this swap, my understanding is as follows:

The "only" front setup that works with e36 bits is to use 1996+ e36 M (identical to Z3M) stuff. You have to use the control arm, spindle, and the hubs to get the right geometry, and an adjustable caster plate might also be required. You need an "offset" control arm bushing to get the wheel centered in the wheel well properly. If I understand correclty, there's no way to get non-M e36 stuff to work without really messing up the front geometry. I plan on analyzing the front suspension when I do my swap so I can see for real how everything changes with this swap.

For the rear it seems like there's a lot more options that work. e36 318Ti trailing arms and hubs are a direct swap, I believe. the 4-cyl "narrow body" Z3 TAs also work. The "wide body" Z3 stuff adds too much offset. I believe the Z3M adds less offset (20mm) so you need ET40 wheels in the back, but the rear Z3M TAs are extremely expensive these days, so not worth it IMHO. My original plan was to use Z3M stuff so I could get the beefy halfshafts and bigger brakes, but the TAs are so expensive I'm changing course, and even thinking of abandoning 5-lug swap all together since the benefits are hardly there. There's a guy selling brake relocation brackets to use e46 calipers and rotors, on Z4 hubs. The Z4 apparently is only +2.3mm or something like that (nearly inconsequential additional offset), and this is the new path I'm looking into.

Doing all the research I've done at this point it really does seem like the smart thing to do is just run an e30 big brake kit, if the goal is bigger brakes. The only tangible benefit from 5-lug swap might be that you can get a vented rear rotor, and I don't really know if that's worth it. Lots of time and $$$ for not much in return.

Having said all that, I'm going for a sleeper build, so OE brakes and OE wheels are pretty relevant to that overall look, so the e38 Style 5 16" wheels and OEM brakes are strongly preferred for me than an aftermarket big brake kit, which is more or less the only reason I'm still pursuing this. If I didn't care about the OE look I would probably go for a big brake kit and appropriately sized 4-lug wheels and call it a day.

Ya after i started to see the $$$ pile up just for 5 lugs, I decided to stick with my 91 318is brakes, just get a better rotor and race pads for now. Maybe after a few years of driving and I feel like changing it I'm just going to go to 4 lug e30 big brake kits from massivebrakes or someone like that. I have 16x8.5 et20 so O.E look is out for me lol. I have to roll my fenders to make them work. I'm running a 10mm spacer and I don't want 17s or anything like that so I don't feel or see the need to go to 5 lugs. Plus going 5 lugs adds more unsprung weight which is the opposite of what I want to do.

[Whit3 E30]

When this thread was popular I never had a chance to build any of this stuff. And now I do,and much better understand of how suspension works. Centered wheel has nothing to do alignment. And the problem is the E36M stuff has more castor trail. So Its a balance of correct suspension points top and lower of strut to offset the extra caster trail.

I have Z3M Trailing trailing arms, And not sure if I had a set of wacky ones. But in stock form they had major tow out. Others don't seem to really align their car, and not much feed back out there. The larger bearings and stub axles are a plus. But the rear is like an inch wider. that means you'll need 12.5MM to get a matching / wider front track.

Back to the front.. The wheel is just a pivot point, set the caster and the pickup points now mark them selves. This is how I got down to 7.5* castor from 11.75* with ADJ control arms. Trial and Tribulations can be seen in my build thread.
96+ M3 Knuckes, MRT DTM style CA with roll center, Vink motorsports, and the camber plate explains itself.

I'm sorry but that picture shows your horrible destruction of a E30 strut tower. I know strut tower modifications have been around for awhile but that doesn't classify as a good choice IMO. That tower looks like a HUGE weak point now and they weren't the strongest towers to begin with. Are you seriously driving that around with the strut mount secured by 2 an a half bolts??? I would be very very very careful if I were you. This I just my opinion but if you have to decimate a piece of your car to make your idea come to life... idk if it truly should see the light of day. It's not my car an not my money so do what you want to do but that picture brings tears to my eyes cuz I feel the pain of that car 😭😭 (crying faces)

[moatilliatta]

Don't be so EMO.. Its mocked up for measurement purposes. Take the info as you will. Yes any car with camber plates with untouched towers will probably have cracks with proper track use.

[atmh]

Mmm, yeah, so even though there's a lot of info out there saying "it works!" the answer may simply be "no, not really".

I bought a brake relocation kit for the rear to basically keep stock trailing arms and just make space for the bigger rear brakes from an e46 with a Z4 hub, and I opted *not* to do the front that way; I wanted to keep the e36 M stuff as the plan, but with all this added info about trying to get the front to fit, I'm seriously second guessing even that "tried and true" plan.

Is there not a 5-lug hub that just slips on the front spindle? I hate caliper relocation brackets, but it's seriously starting to seem like the better option...

[moatilliatta]

What are your goals?

[atmh]

OE big brakes and wheels. e36 M3 sized with e38 style 5 wheels, specifically. Would love to be able to run e46 wheel speed sensors since I'm installing the MK60 ABS module.

Ideally with as close as possible to stock e30 suspension geometry.

I already have half the kit I need for 5-lug swap, but NBD if I have to change course.

[moatilliatta]

What’s your hp goal weight?

[Northern]

Are you seriously driving that around with the strut mount secured by 2 an a half bolts???

Clearly someone who runs MCS dampers would be the same person to drive their car with the towers hacked up. At least facebook would agree with that idea lmao.


Re: 96+ m3 Caster -
I guess we should've probably figured this out long ago, either from looking at late E36M strut mounts, or by looking at what caster E36 guys aim for.
Plenty of facebook people word vomited E30 caster specs back like that was relevant after replacing the knuckle with one off a different car