S14 - Overrrated or Underrated?

[2mAn]

doubt it. He just wants to see us argue in the thread.

Sort of...I just wanted to stir the pot a little... and it worked.

Now if I wanted to see people argue, I would post a new topic in the P&R sub...

[varg]

I can't tune EFI myself, but I can tune carbs

So pick up a book and learn. The "secret" tuners keep is that it isn't hard as long as you actually bother to learn the fundamentals. Every failed and fucked up project car tune I've ever fixed was just because the owner didn't put any effort into learning what is going on and tried to get by on guesswork.

I literally taught myself how to tune from scratch on my own daily driver with a used MS and a harness I built in my living room in the 2000s, and eventually tuned countless cars and made money doing it. I've now owned multiple daily driven cars with ECUs I built and tuned myself and have tuned dailies, track cars, drag cars, weekend cars, a boat... I've tuned carbs on bikes and cars too with nothing more than the knowledge I gained about how everything works via tuning EFI. EFI is actually easier than carbs because you can actually see the results of what you're doing with datalogs and an AFR gauge, there is no guesswork after you get the base tune running.

[moatilliatta]

Pay or don’t play.

I consider real M engines to be a bit exotic,

S50b32 are not far behind, and s54s are going up as less are available.

I don’t think any one should be surprised.

[MrBurgundy]

Do you have one now? Or getting one soon?

doubt it. He just wants to see us argue in the thread.

[82eye]

agree on the overpriced. it's a brilliant engine for it's time and was never meant to be a sedate road going engine. i can't see living with one at all.

[TobyB]

Overpriced.

t

[craz azn]

I co-sign almost everything that's been said thus far in regards to how these engines perform, how to get the most out of them, even most of the personal preferences. One just has to be realistic about what these engines, and cars, can or cannot do. It punches well above its weight for what it is, but don't expect it to be a stump pulling torque monster in any scenario, with any and all mods thrown at it.

It depends on how you use it. Now remember it was built for racing a lightweight car around a track

+1

After driving my M3 for the past 13 years, if I get in a normal E30 or E36, the first thing I notice is the very forward weight bias. Its not a good tradeoff. In the case of an E36, yep its got more power and torque, but god do they handle poorly. The front end is just too heavy. An E30 is better, but I wouldn't say its good. This is part of the reason the E30 M3 is such a legendary car, and all the M3s that have followed have failed to live up to the fame (Checks internet for most winning touring car in history... Oh yeah still the E30 M3.)

I wouldn't say an E36 handles poorly. It is a way more forgiving car to drive at the limit compared to an E30 (and same can be said for all the M cars that followed). I think maybe you mean in terms of driving experience or driver engagement? Maybe then the E30 excels... but that's about it. Assuming similar modded cars, E30 vs newer chassis cars, it just can't match the cornering speeds (if we use that as a metric for 'handling')... same can be said for how the car brakes, puts power down, etc.

As for the racing record of most winning touring car... maybe, but keep in mind, that was done at a time when racing regs were adopted worldwide, and also when rules were somewhat stagnated... you will never find that anymore ever again, even with the advent of the modern rulesets that always have a BoP, etc.

[Panici]

My one regret is that I can't pitch the EFI in the trash and run carbs. I can't tune EFI myself, but I can tune carbs. (I really hate EFI. Computers belong on your desk, not in a car.)

Will, I would agree that a factory EFI system is no fun. However I submit that a standalone EFI system that you can fully control is a blast.
More adjustable then a set of carbs.

I will admit that making the changes on a laptop instead of with physical parts doesn't quite have the same "feeling".
That's why I like a manually adjustable fuel pressure regulator and boost controller. Still have some knobs to fiddle with that way.

[ZeKahr]

Overrated for regular street drivers? Sure

Overrated for the guys that try to flip E30 M3s on BAT for max profit? Oh no, they’re very underrated to those people

Either way, good luck getting good quality parts for this thing. Even if some of the NLA ones are repro’d by the aftermarket, they probably won’t be the same quality as OEM unless that manufacturer is known for putting out quality repro’s

[BlackbirdM3]

Great engines when viewed with 35 year old glasses. It's a very cool vintage motorsport engine that can made to perform really well for its age (and is one of the best sounding engines out there), but as a modern street engine, its pretty underwhelming. The 2.5 crank is almost necessary if you plan on driving it daily. The high HP ones take a lot of work to get there, and don't have a long lifespan when you do. It's possible to make 300+ hp on a race engine, but don't expect more than ~240-whp on a still streetable engine.

Who the hell needs 240+ HP in a street car? I mean really? Its not a fatass 4000lb car. I will say I have yet to lose and autoX to a newer M3 on street tires. I'll go a step further, and say my engine is tired. I know it is, The odometer says a little shy of 187K miles, but we all know how easy it is to swap a speedo. I cannot think of a time when I needed more power than I have. Hell, I chased down a new vette on a backroad with my M3 fully loaded with all my camping gear, photo equipment, ect, with a full tank of fuel. The guy was going pretty well, but I caught him and he gave me a point by. I never saw him in my rearview again after the 2nd corner. Sure, to make a pass in a short passing lane, HP is nice, but even then, do you really need to make a sketchy pass?

I will say that when I go though my S14, its getting some headwork done, the most beautiful 2.3L crank I've ever seen, and a set of cams (Evo3 intake, E2 intake on the exhaust) a 9lb flywheel, a light set of pistons, and a better header. I'll bet that should come close to 200 at the wheels, and I'll call it good. It will be a rev happy, reliable engine that will go another 200K miles. Will the rebuild be cheap? Nope, lots of machining to do, and machine work isn't cheap. Still it will be a one time expense. My one regret is that I can't pitch the EFI in the trash and run carbs. I can't tune EFI myself, but I can tune carbs. (I really hate EFI. Computers belong on your desk, not in a car.)

Will

[e30m3s54turbo]

I bought a new m3 in 1990 it was fast in its time. It lacked torque but you had to rev out to 7k to have fun on street and track.
I have two m3 no s14 in them. I love the race history on the s14 but bmw never built a other 4 cylinder m car. BMW built six and eight. Now turbo six.

[varg]

I have no experience with them so feel free to stop reading there but I doubt the engine is overrated if you view it through clear eyes instead of expecting it to be something that is worth what M3s and S14s cost these days. I've seen what they sell for and as a value proposition they're definitely total buns, probably some of the worst performance per dollar on the engine swap market. It's an old 4cyl engine that it makes some decent power but E30 M3s, at least the US models, are not super light at ~2,800lbs+ unless you start pulling stuff out of them they're so they probably feel pretty gutless for normal driving, much like an S2000. Judged in isolation of the M3 they came in, I'd never put an S14 into anything because they don't do anything that a K-swap won't do for less money and weight and I'm not rich... I guess I wouldn't do it even if I were rich because I wouldn't be spending tens of thousands on sub 300hp 4cyls with a V12/4 rotor budget.

[mavrikno13764]

What mods are a MUST?

Carbon Airbox, Let that intake sing to you whenever you can!

[FredK]

Great engines when viewed with 35 year old glasses. It's a very cool vintage motorsport engine that can made to perform really well for its age (and is one of the best sounding engines out there), but as a modern street engine, its pretty underwhelming. The 2.5 crank is almost necessary if you plan on driving it daily. The high HP ones take a lot of work to get there, and don't have a long lifespan when you do. It's possible to make 300+ hp on a race engine, but don't expect more than ~240-whp on a still streetable engine.

Yep, exactly.

The stock S14B23 might not be impressive by modern standards, but it was developed in the mid 80s, when 192 hp was a lot for a 4 cylinder engine, and likely among the highest hp/L naturally aspirated engine at the time. I don't consider it to be overrated at all, considering the era it came from. I don't think many NA 4 cylinder engines in 1986 came anywhere close.

Modern S14 ownership isn't that easy, because the engine is very pricey, and a lot of the components have been discontinued, but some of the discontinued parts are supported by the aftermarket.

[e30davie]

They certainly command high $$. and weather the price is justified for history/nostalgia/period correctness, only you can decide. things have come along way since, but no modern engine will be an e30 m3 motor. You can probably do a honda K series RWD for the price of a broken s14, but it will never be an s14. (Exaduaration maybe, but you get the idea)