Has Putin lost his mind?

[Vincenze]

Well, propaganda says, "Everything is bad in North Korea, people starve, they are extremely poor...".

Then I watch one of videos.
There are not many cars, people walk, ride bicycles or use trolleys - that's what global-warmers desire.
Streets are clean, multi-story buildings are good, people are well-dressed.

I also watch propaganda, "Mexico is super dangerous, Mexicans are poor, never go there!"
Then, I visit Mexico. Yes, cars are older, but they are everywhere. All restaurants are full.
I feel safer as there are policemen everywhere and there are no homeless.

[roguetoaster]

Well, propaganda says, "Everything is bad in North Korea, people starve, they are extremely poor...".

Then I watch one of videos.
There are not many cars, people walk, ride bicycles or use trolleys - that's what global-warmers desire.
Streets are clean, multi-story buildings are good, people are well dressed.

I also watch propaganda, "Mexico is super dangerous, Mexicans are poor, never go there!"
Then, I visit Mexico. Yes, cars are older, but they are everywhere. All restaurants are full.
I feel safer as there are policemen everywhere and there are no homeless.

Hmm, I wonder if the truth could be somewhere between widely held beliefs about a nation and the barest surface perceptions of a nation to a visitor? Nah, can't be, everything is fine, we're all fine, and no one wants anything to change anywhere.

[moatilliatta]

One saying that has stuck in my mind “Perception is the truth”
I hate this saying but it’s the “truth”. Two people can be in the the same situation with two different perceptions of what was real. We’ve all seen videos and visited places and nothing is black and white, and dependent on your beliefs you may just see one side of the coin, whether it’s at its face value or not.

Take all data with a clear mind, believe cautiously.

I am excited in this day and age we can see almost live time videos of what’s happening at ground level. But it’s still our perception of what they are perceiving.

At least E30’s are real. <3

[nando]

This isn't just perception though. Putin invaded a sovereign nation and wants to take it over. That truth is as clear as day.

Even if people in Ukraine are poor - which, I wouldn't base any belief off random youtube videos - they have a right to their sovereignty and to not be invaded by a ruthless autocrat.

[nando]

blah blah blah sheeple blah blah blah MSM blah blah blah

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the Ukraine. Nobody is invading North Korea or Mexico.

[roguetoaster]

One saying that has stuck in my mind “Perception is the truth”
I hate this saying but it’s the “truth”. Two people can be in the the same situation with two different perceptions of what was real. We’ve all seen videos and visited places and nothing is black and white, and dependent on your beliefs you may just see one side of the coin, whether it’s at its face value or not.

Take all data with a clear mind, believe cautiously.

I am excited in this day and age we can see almost live time videos of what’s happening at ground level. But it’s still our perception of what they are perceiving.

At least E30’s are real. <3

Analyzing information is crucial.

However, in this case there is absolutely no question that Russia invaded Ukraine under fabricated pretext. Not saying you are saying anything different, but I want to make it clear to everyone that this is irrefutable fact.

Do they intend to occupy, annex, or just install a puppet regime, we cannot say for sure, but we can say that there is no possible motivation which makes these actions acceptable, period.

[MrBurgundy]

One saying that has stuck in my mind “Perception is the truth”
I hate this saying but it’s the “truth”. Two people can be in the the same situation with two different perceptions of what was real. We’ve all seen videos and visited places and nothing is black and white, and dependent on your beliefs you may just see one side of the coin, whether it’s at its face value or not.

Take all data with a clear mind, believe cautiously.

I am excited in this day and age we can see almost live time videos of what’s happening at ground level. But it’s still our perception of what they are perceiving.

At least E30’s are real. <3

QFT

Wasn't Ukraine on a path to becoming a NATO ally?

Putin was clearly very against that.

I say that to your 'fabricated pretext'

I'm no supporter of what's happening, but that just came to mind when I read that comment.

[Vincenze]

Nobody is invading North Korea or Mexico.

Can Texans vote to reunite with the motherland then?

[nando]

QFT

Wasn't Ukraine on a path to becoming a NATO ally?

Putin was clearly very against that.

I say that to your 'fabricated pretext'

I'm no supporter of what's happening, but that just came to mind when I read that comment.

It has nothing to do with NATO - at least, not directly. The fabricated pretext is that the Ukraine was somehow a military threat to the safety of Russia, and that their regime is run by Nazis and must be overthrown. Which is both hilarious and preposterous - the Ukrainian president is Jewish and descendent from survivors of the holocaust. And of course the claims were ridiculous to start with regardless of the Ukrainian president's family history.

A weak and pliant Ukraine, preferably under the control of the Kremlin, is the end goal here, and would give them a lot more leverage towards Western Europe. It actually has nothing to do with Nazis or some ridiculous threat the Ukrainians may have had towards Russia - they've done a good job holding up against the invasion, but I think everyone knows there's no way they'll outright win this war on their own.

[MrBurgundy]

Wouldn't Ukraine become a military threat to Russia if they were a NATO ally, IE; the USA right on their doorstep?

I think saying it has nothing to do with NATO is a stretch.

What you were saying after that, I've never heard that before lol.

[roguetoaster]

Wouldn't Ukraine become a military threat to Russia if they were a NATO ally, IE; the USA right on their doorstep?

I think saying it has nothing to do with NATO is a stretch.

What you were saying after that, I've never heard that before lol.

Any country can claim another country is a miliraty threat, no matter if they are part of any military group or not. The reality is that Ukraine was in no way postured for an invasion of Russia, nor could it in any way realistically fight an offensive war in Russia. Furthermore, Russia was involved in staging 200K military personnel and significant offensive military equipment along Ukraine's border, and within the supposedly sovereign nation of Belarus when it made assertions that Ukraine was a threat.

NATO is not the USA, it's a group of nations, with nearby Russian neighbors of Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Poland, Romania, and Turkey already holding membership. The primary original purpose of this group is a defensive military alliance, against the Soviet Union, which no longer exists. These days it is a defensive alliance that generally works as an international military policing agency in it's sphere of influence. As an aside, Russia is also associated with NATO as a member of the Partnership of Peace, and Russia also frequently joins discourse within NATO as a non-member state.

As to nando's point, the public stance from Russia is that if Ukraine joins NATO that now NATO can/will suddenly have the ability attack Russia's borders directly. However, Russia is already directly bordered by NATO member nations. That alone makes the assertion that a Ukrainian NATO membership is a threat to Russia ridiculous. More realistically, in order for Putin to stay in power he needs a clear enemy to redirect focus from his regime/unite his base, in this case it's NATO/the West generally who are cast as the enemy, so it makes for a convenient excuse/connection.

The second point is that Putin has directly accused Ukrainian leadership of being Nazis, drug users, and more. Russia has provided zero proof of those assertions, and the claims generally have no merit. That said, there are neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine, and they are often tied up in the drug trade, and that's where the nugget of believability arises. But these groups are not associated with the Ukrainian government any more than similar groups in the US would be with our government.

Don't forget, Ukraine is also a resource rich nation, and adding it to the Russian Federation no matter officially or through a puppet government is extremely beneficial for the leadership of Russia and their close allies.

[MrBurgundy]

Sure, but why would Russia want MORE NATO countries boarding it's western boarder?

Putin has been talking about eastern Europe in regards to NATO for a long time and has expressed he wouldn't give up an inch in that region. NATO has been a factor at play here for along time.

The west is a threat to everyone, since you're talking about any country can claim another country is a military threat. The west and it's allies have demonstrated that a million times. We've been fighting 'threats' thousands of miles away for 20 plus years.

Putin is def not invading Ukraine because he thinks they're nazis lol.. who cares about that statement lol

Sure, NATO is not the USA, obviously, but we are a part of NATO and countries nearby Russia who are a part of NATO are already asking for permanent US bases on their land.

Any physical ground/air intervention in Ukraine would be foolish. This is Putin's war. They've been saying that the whole time and boy, they're right.

[nando]

Sure, I guess - but NATO isn't an invasion force. It would just stop them from being able to do what they are now, which is basically invade whoever they want.

[MrBurgundy]

Sure, I guess - but NATO isn't an invasion force. It would just stop them from being able to do what they are now, which is basically invade whoever they want.

Do you know when the first time and only time Article 5 of NATO was used?

It was after the 9/11 attacks. Then we fought a 20 year war thousands of miles away. NATO is an invasion force.

That's all it's done. It's never defended, it's only been on the offense.

[roguetoaster]

Do you know when the first time and only time Article 5 of NATO was used?

It was after the 9/11 attacks. Then we fought a 20 year war thousands of miles away. NATO is an invasion force.

That's all it's done. It's never defended, it's only been on the offense.

I was going to argue earlier that NATO could almost never agree on a plan, or get full commitment from members and is thus a fairly ineffective force in totality. All we have to do to prove this is look at the claim of providing Ukraine with more aviation assets which fell apart in a mere 36 hours.

My real question to you would be why does another country wanting to join an international organization become a reason to go to war with said nation, moreover, what do you think justifies an invasion of another nation? I would say that it doesn't ever, and I would also argue that the war on terror was also an illegal act. I would also argue that the post 9/11 campaign was manufactured and led by the US, and NATO was coerced or perhaps willfully misled in to agreement. As to justification, a direct and immediate threat would need to exist before I would agree that any invasion of another nation might be justified.

Secondarily, when are international neighbors justified in intervening in such a conflict as we have today? I would argue when the casus belli is unjust or fabricated, or when the success of the aggressors mission would constitute a direct and immediate threat to said neighbor (which probably isn't the case here), or when preexisting international agreements are in place calling on one nation/group to defend another (which Russia is preempting).

As to NATO being an invasion force I think that's almost completely incorrect, with the exception of your reasonable assertion post 9/11, and possibly the air mission over Serbia being an offensive operation. On the whole, there haven't been a great number of serious NATO operations, and the vast majority of them are relief, border security/peacekeeping or interdiction.