Why you feel america is failing

[mrsleeve]

Sleeve, you know as well as I that you cannot misconstrue or discredit it based upon the actions of those within it. Look at the current republican party, they are so far gone from their party beliefs that they can hardly be called republicans. The ideals hold true, even if the actions of it's members don't uphold them.

I am not going to argue this, we have a govt problem R and D have both been infested with Progressives masquerading as something they are not to get a toe hold on power........

[BraveUlysses]

entertain us: how do you define "progressive"

[mrsleeve]

They don't stand for what you think their name sake means. I am back at work working grave yards 16 on 8 off cleaning up other peoples messes. I don't have time or the enrgy to make my normal length posts right now on such topics especially from my phone..........

Stay tuned for little blurbs here and there

[sumoashe]

Come on now, no party stands for what it's namesake means. So why single out "progressive", why not repubs, dems, libs? Once again, you cannot judge ideals based on the actions of those under them. Men with money and power will always crave money and power. It's up to us to keep them in check.

Ideals are not inherently good or evil. The men who twist and warp them to their own means are. Blame the people, not the ideals. Otherwise to discredit one group of ideals based on your criteria discredits them all at the same time, by the same criteria. Again, this is the same argument you used repeatedly in the gun control debate. So which is it, either your wrong, or being a hypocrite in this situation?

[2761377]

He ask what specific morals/ideas, which can only be attributed to/from/for Christianity, are in our Constitution?

no, this is the specific quote that caused to me comment in this masturbatory thread-

"The Founders went out of their way to never use the words "God" and "Jesus" in the Founding documents,"

the preamble of the Declaration specifically mentions a power higher than man in order to justify rebellion against the lawful ruler, George III. my simple cut and paste is to refute his foolish claim. nothing more. i couldn't care less about his distorted view of history, i just want the facts to be straight.

[sumoashe]

Although you are correct in their use of the word god as being placed within the document. That doesn't mean that it was the same definition of god that you use. In this you would be juxtaposing your beliefs on those of the founding fathers. The word "God" is a generic one. Meaning different things to different people. So your both right and wrong.

[sumoashe]

'Christian Morals': I was raised Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian in a super-southern atmosphere so I think I understand this. Some people hate it but I understand it much better because I had a kick-ass Presbyterian church to go to with my friends when I was in highschool. All the westboro church bullshit you see on tv makes the 'good' churches look pretty bad. And they are all assuredly not 'good' churches when rich old white dudes are running them. It pisses me off to no end when, as a Christian, you have a moral duty to help the poor, the sick, bring in the sinners to the good word of Jesus etc and yet somehow your political lobby does exactly the opposite of that. We build free health clinics and homes for the poor in Honduras but won't do it in our own country. That is odd. Why? What are we doing to promote these 'christian values'? Deny gays and blacks and women the right to vote? That is not what we should be focusing on, as 'Christians'.

This is an example of what is good about faith. He allowed the ideals of his faith to shape his views. Versus allowing his views to shape his faith. I have no issues with faith, and believe it to be a great asset. But there is a difference between faith and religion. Faith leads the strong, religion controls the weak. All of what he said in the post holds true. Because it comes from a logical bases. Not a religious dogma.

[sumoashe]

One of the largest issues we have is our outdated and unequal educational system. It's outdated in terms that we continue teaching the same ol things simply cause it's always been taught. Instead of updating what is taught based on current scientific proof we teach outdated idea's. Leaving people under educated or just plain miss informed. As knowledge is gained it also must be spread at the same rate.

The unfair aspect is spread across the board. When it comes to higher education we've created a subclass of people. Those with degrees and those without. How many of us here have been passed up for a job or promotion simply because we don't have a piece of paper. Where the people receiving these positions have no formal experience, barely able to do the jobs they receive. The idea that a diploma is a gateway to success is a falsehood that's been proven time and time again. Yet we allow it to continue.

There's also the fact that colleges have become just another brand name to flash around, giving undo merit to them. College should be available and affordable to all, not only the well to do. Nor should people go into untold debt simply cause a school decides to pay a football coach a multi million dollar salary, passing the cost onto the very students it's trying to attract. College should be an option, not a mandatory thing. I agree not everyone needs nor should go to college. But right now for alot of the country it's simply not an option due to cost. Especially with no guarantee the degree will be worth the debt incurred to get it.

We've left no doors for the lower class to move up, only sideways. Lateral movement will not create growth in our country. The ability to educate your self should be based on the drive and ability to do so, not the ability to pay nor the name of the school.

[mrsleeve]

^

are you really fucking serious...............................


Fucks sake I agree the notion that you have to get a degree to make it in life is false, (I am living proof of that) and too many go forth and partake of that fallacy. And easy debt = Colleges taking advantage of that easy cash coupled with young kids ignorant of the dangers of debt and compound interest just like the sub prime debockel


Every one has the same fucking opportunity to succeed in this country, it just depends on if your willing to do what it takes to do so. Or are smart enough to take advantage of the opportunity presented to you.

[Dozyproductions]

no, this is the specific quote that caused to me comment in this masturbatory thread-

"The Founders went out of their way to never use the words "God" and "Jesus" in the Founding documents,"

the preamble of the Declaration specifically mentions a power higher than man in order to justify rebellion against the lawful ruler, George III. my simple cut and paste is to refute his foolish claim. nothing more. i couldn't care less about his distorted view of history, i just want the facts to be straight.

His quote was more of an allegory if you will. ;) A god might be mentioned in the documents but you can't even prove that it's yours. So his question was what specific Christian morals do we have in our Constitution that would without a doubt prove that we are a Christian based nation? None of what was written came from Christians since the commandments are all based off of ideas that already existed.

[sumoashe]

Every one has the same fucking opportunity to succeed in this country, it just depends on if your willing to do what it takes to do so. Or are smart enough to take advantage of the opportunity presented to you.

Just cause the constitution says we are all equal doesn't make it true in reality. We treat those of color as secondary citizens from the get go. Limiting some and taking away other opportunities.

If we all had the same opportunity to succeed then inner city schools would be just as good as those in the suburbs. Yet in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. Underfunded inner city schools have vastly overcrowded classes with not even enough textbooks to go around, sometimes as bad as 1 book to 7 students. Not to mention the fact that the books they do have are so outdated there almost useless. Why do you think these kids leave the school several years behind educationally compared to their suburban counterparts? According to you it's cause the kids don't work hard enough. What kind of bs is that. How can a group take advantage of opportunities that aren't even present in the first place?

I'm not saying college should be free, but it should be affordable enough that if you choose to go being poor shouldn't be an excluding factor. Nor should it put you into a lifetime of debt.

I agree that it ultimately comes down to the individual to make the best of what they have, and be willing to work hard for any gains. But you cannot say that everyone has the same opportunities, this is simply untrue. Economic and ethnic background plays a huge role in what opportunities are available.

For example, which kid do you think stands a better chance of getting into harvard?
The black kid that's worked his ass off with a 4.0, but little financial means?
Or the rich white kid with a 3.0, but well connected parents?

[Dozyproductions]

^^I hate to say this but your attitude is the prevailing attitude amongst a lot of Americans it seems and that it could be a reason pointed out for this thread.

Nothing is pre determined and thinking such gets you no where. If all you can focus on is how easy some people have it then you're not focusing enough on your own possibilities. Something called assessing the situation. You're in a shitty one? Well then set yourself on standards that will get you out of it.

Honestly, I believe there are two modes to human thought. Love and fear. Fear is dominant in our culture. The fear of whats next, what you can afford, what's new and etc. People living in fear are easier to control through, a sub emotion of fear; hate. That's why we have rampant mindlessness and hypocrisy in this country because easily by pushing the right buttons you can do anything way too easily!

[Mr. Tasty]

Just cause the constitution says we are all equal doesn't make it true in reality. We treat those of color as secondary citizens from the get go. Limiting some and taking away other opportunities.

If we all had the same opportunity to succeed then inner city schools would be just as good as those in the suburbs. Yet in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. Underfunded inner city schools have vastly overcrowded classes with not even enough textbooks to go around, sometimes as bad as 1 book to 7 students. Not to mention the fact that the books they do have are so outdated there almost useless. Why do you think these kids leave the school several years behind educationally compared to their suburban counterparts? According to you it's cause the kids don't work hard enough. What kind of bs is that. How can a group take advantage of opportunities that aren't even present in the first place?

I'm not saying college should be free, but it should be affordable enough that if you choose to go being poor shouldn't be an excluding factor. Nor should it put you into a lifetime of debt.

I agree that it ultimately comes down to the individual to make the best of what they have, and be willing to work hard for any gains. But you cannot say that everyone has the same opportunities, this is simply untrue. Economic and ethnic background plays a huge role in what opportunities are available.

For example, which kid do you think stands a better chance of getting into harvard?
The black kid that's worked his ass off with a 4.0, but little financial means?
Or the rich white kid with a 3.0, but well connected parents?

I can't tell if you are serious or not. The black kid will always get the opportunity over the white kid.

[sumoashe]

^^I hate to say this but your attitude is the prevailing attitude amongst a lot of Americans it seems and that it could be a reason pointed out for this thread.

Nothing is pre determined and thinking such gets you no where. If all you can focus on is how easy some people have it then you're not focusing enough on your own possibilities. Something called assessing the situation. You're in a shitty one? Well then set yourself on standards that will get you out of it.

The attitude towards it doesn't change the fact that these sort of things happen. And changing the public attitude towards it won't keep it from happening. Ignoring something doesn't fix it.

I agree nothing is predetermined, but sometimes you can end up screwed no matter what you do. Nothing in this life should come for free. Whether that be living off welfare cause you feel your entitled to it, or altering policy cause your wealthy and feel entitled to do so. In either case it's the same thing to me. People simply feeling they've earned something they haven't. But you cannot fix the one without fixing the other.

I've spent my life working my ass off for everything I have. I have nothing that I don't own outright. If I couldn't afford it in cash, I didn't buy it. I could of taken the easy route at many points. But I didn't, simply cause it's not what I felt was right.

Whether rich or poor, you should be entitled to nothing other than what your willing to work for. But unfortunately people on both sides of that spectrum have sunk this country into the craper. It's us in the middle that get screwed tho. But inaction will do nothing to stem those on either side.

[sumoashe]

I can't tell if you are serious or not. The black kid will always get the opportunity over the white kid.

cody, these are just for you.

In a 2004 interview Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African-American Research at Harvard, told the London Observer, “The black kids who come to Harvard or Yale are middle class. Nobody else gets through.”

That same year Professor Gates, speaking at a public forum at Princeton University, stated his belief that 75 percent of the black students at Harvard were of African or Caribbean descent or of mixed race. According to Professor Gates, more than two thirds of all Harvard's black students were either the children or grandchildren of West Indians or Africans and very few of Harvard's black students were the descendants of American slaves.

While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department, pointed out that the majority of them -- perhaps as many as two-thirds -- were West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent, children of biracial couples.