Trump Thread 2.0

[nando]

The death rate is probably low because kids haven't been exposed so they haven't gotten it as much. Plus we have no idea what the long term side effects could be, for anyone much less children. It could be nothing, or it could be debilitating. At my age, it would suck but wouldn't be as big of a deal if I had issues long term. But when you're 8 or 9? That's very different.

I hope your mom does OK. Hopefully she wasn't near them for long enough to have been infected. Ironically, my mom died last year of a heart attack - so I don't have to worry about it at least. :|

[CarpHunter]

Marshal, I'm curious, and not looking to fight here. But I have to ask, if 150+ thousand dead americans isn't cause to say this administration dropped the ball, how many is? At what death toll would you start to question things?

The fact is america is doing the worst globally. That's not a dig at the current administration, that's just a sad fact. When comparing nations for this, it's not about population numbers. It's about population density. The denser the population, the higher the chances of infection. On that metric, the u.s. has one of the lowest population densities in the world. As of 2019, it ranked #174 globally, whereas say south korea, which ranks #23.

Do I personally think another administration would of handled this better? Yes, without question. I compare this by how various administrations globally have handled it so far. In countries like south korea, new Zealand, germany, where administrations listened to doctors and were proactive, they are beating it and returning to a new normal. In countries like america, Brazil, Turkey, where administrations have ignored medical science and instead downplayed or worse, called it a hoax, are doing worse. Reclosing, explosive case numbers, failing economy.

So I just don't understand when you say there was nothing more or different "trump" could do. Because factually there is. He could do what nations that are beating this have done and are doing.

[kronus]

The point is, I am not able to stop transmitting a virus to someone else.

yes you are

If they get it and they get sick and they die...it would suck.

in addition to sucking it would be criminally negligent

But I couldn't ever be responsible for their death and neither would you.

yes you would

The problem is that this cannot be avoided

yes it can

and people seem to think that if you just hunker down in place forever, it will go away.

that is exactly how you make it go away

That's simply not how it works.

yes it is

[roguetoaster]

yes you are

in addition to sucking it would be criminally negligent

yes you would

yes it can

that is exactly how you make it go away

yes it is

Unfortunately, to be criminally liable (or likely on the civil side too) one would probably have to know that they are infected (and be contagious), and then knowingly interact with others without any precautions. All the defense would have to do to protect their client would be to prove that the person who was sickened was in contact with one other potentially contagious individual. Clearly, direct intent matters, but I don't see many successful prosecutions or suits coming down the pipe.

All the legal precedent in the world for this was set during the early years of HIV/AIDS.

[nando]

Criminally is probably taking it too far - but morally, yes you would be. At least, anyone with a shred of conscience and empathy for others would feel responsible. You know, people who aren't Trump loving psychopaths.

It would be difficult to prove and unlikely to be successful, but I'm sure there will be at least one case brought to the courts. This is America, after all.

[ForcedFirebird]

yes you are



in addition to sucking it would be criminally negligent



yes you would



yes it can



that is exactly how you make it go away



yes it is

OMG! Just spat my drink out of my nose.

[marshallnoise]

...do you really have no idea what started all this shit?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/03/us/ge...eak/index.html

there you go. cops murdering a dude because they suspected he used a fake $20. if it wasn't murder, why'd they all get fired and one of them *brought up on a murder charge*?

and you're the one who called for war, so don't gaslight me

I can't believe I missed this gem! The guy will be acquitted for murder 2. The officer did not murder him at all based on both autopsies. He was freaking out because he was high as fuck. He died from being high as fuck and being stressed out. But it ain't murder, that's for sure. So fuck off with that really, really horrible spin.

So once again, the whole nation went ape shit over nothing, essentially. It sucks he died. It sucks that he was high as fuck and it sucks that he was breaking laws in the first place. But, its "murder."

[marshallnoise]

Children have definitely died from CV-19, although deaths and severity is relatively low. But it does happen.

My Mom was out recently for a walk in their Chicago-area neighborhood and stopped at the neighbor kids lemonade stand on their street. She got a lemonade and some cookies in an effort to be nice to the little girls. Now why on earth the neighbors thought their daughters running a lemonade stand during a pandemic was a good idea, I don't know. TLDR: My mom has been quarantining and just got tested because she got a call a day later from that girl's Mom that Jenny had come down with CV. Apparently got it from a Summer camp where she had just came back from.

So kids can get CV too and pass it along! And just because most do not get sick or die so easily doesn't mean they can't pass it along to my 72 year old mother or father or your parents that may be way more likely to get super sick or even die.

Right! Keep your snot factory away from Grandpa and Grandma, problem solved! Kids can go back to school!! AMAZING SOLUTION!!!

https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Nando, since you trust the government so much, here is the CDC telling you that you are stupid, ignorant and shameless. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...g-schools.html

[marshallnoise]

Marshal, I'm curious, and not looking to fight here. But I have to ask, if 150+ thousand dead americans isn't cause to say this administration dropped the ball, how many is? At what death toll would you start to question things?

The fact is america is doing the worst globally. That's not a dig at the current administration, that's just a sad fact. When comparing nations for this, it's not about population numbers. It's about population density. The denser the population, the higher the chances of infection. On that metric, the u.s. has one of the lowest population densities in the world. As of 2019, it ranked #174 globally, whereas say south korea, which ranks #23.

Do I personally think another administration would of handled this better? Yes, without question. I compare this by how various administrations globally have handled it so far. In countries like south korea, new Zealand, germany, where administrations listened to doctors and were proactive, they are beating it and returning to a new normal. In countries like america, Brazil, Turkey, where administrations have ignored medical science and instead downplayed or worse, called it a hoax, are doing worse. Reclosing, explosive case numbers, failing economy.

So I just don't understand when you say there was nothing more or different "trump" could do. Because factually there is. He could do what nations that are beating this have done and are doing.

Oh, he could have done what Sweden did, right?

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87812

How about the Dutch?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-netherlands-gamble-on-limited-intelligent-lockdown-to-control-covid-19/

The government is not supposed to protect you from dying: the government is designed to protect people's rights. And don't get all stupid and say that "people have a right to be alive." Yeah, no shit Sherlock. But they are not entitled to lock people in their houses "for their own good." No, absolutely not.

[marshallnoise]

yes you are



in addition to sucking it would be criminally negligent



yes you would



yes it can



that is exactly how you make it go away



yes it is

You seem clever, but...yer not.

I forgot though, I have successfully hidden from the flu every year. Oh wait...

[roguetoaster]

Right! Keep your snot factory away from Grandpa and Grandma, problem solved! Kids can go back to school!! AMAZING SOLUTION!!!

https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Nando, since you trust the government so much, here is the CDC telling you that you are stupid, ignorant and shameless. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...g-schools.html

As of July 17, 2020, the United States reported that children and adolescents under 18 years old account for under 7 percent of COVID-19 cases and less than 0.1 percent of COVID-19-related deaths.

Scientific studies suggest that COVID-19 transmission among children in schools may be low. International studies that have assessed how readily COVID-19 spreads in schools also reveal low rates of transmission when community transmission is low.

You have to read in to it. Why were rates of infection low in children, probably because parents kept them at home, and they are probably less likely to get tested.

What about when rates are high? Do schools become an excellent transmission space, most likely.

Children are also far less likely to be able to restrain themselves and I suspect that they are more likely to be "invisible" carriers in a family or community space. What happens if the kid picks it up, displays minimum symptoms, passes it on to their parent, and then their parent becomes seriously ill or dead? Now who cares for that child, how does that impact their well-being and long term success, which seems to be the main point in that CDC page?

On a more basic level, these kids are the future of the country, they matter, we don't, maybe we should be more careful with their lives?

[marshallnoise]

Criminally is probably taking it too far - but morally, yes you would be. At least, anyone with a shred of conscience and empathy for others would feel responsible. You know, people who aren't Trump loving psychopaths.

It would be difficult to prove and unlikely to be successful, but I'm sure there will be at least one case brought to the courts. This is America, after all.

No nando, if I did not intentionally infect someone, I would not be morally responsible for giving it to them. Would I feel bad? Yeah, but I would not feel responsible. No one should feel responsible.

Using your logic, Christopher Columbus, who had no idea he and his crew carried diseases that they had developed immunity for, is morally and legally culpable for the lack of immunity the natives had that wound up killing a bunch of them. Its unfortunate, but that's it man.

I forgot though, there are a whole bunch of people being taught in college that Columbus MURDERED the natives by showing up in the first place. People call it genocide!!! With that kind of distortion of reason going on...I don't know what to do with that.

For all of you who want some perspective, legitimate, actual perspective, read this article. https://www.kunc.org/show/kuncs-colo...orical-context

[marshallnoise]

You have to read in to it. Why were rates of infection low in children, probably because parents kept them at home, and they are probably less likely to get tested.

What about when rates are high? Do schools become an excellent transmission space, most likely.

Children are also far less likely to be able to restrain themselves and I suspect that they are more likely to be "invisible" carriers in a family or community space. What happens if the kid picks it up, displays minimum symptoms, passes it on to their parent, and then their parent becomes seriously ill or dead? Now who cares for that child, how does that impact their well-being and long term success, which seems to be the main point in that CDC page?

On a more basic level, these kids are the future of the country, they matter, we don't, maybe we should be more careful with their lives?

That explains the United State's low rate of infection in children. But again, being infected does not mean they die. We are worried about death here. And if we are worried about death, we identify the people most vulnerable (to Covid) and we work around them. Kids are not dying by this. They factually are not. Old people, nursing home patients and people with generalized poor health are at risk.

School age kids are not killing their parents from this either. That has not been proven even a little. Could they kill grandma? Yeah, really only if she is ill, has diabetes or other severe health problems.

Once again, the kid's lives are not threatened by this disease. Period.

[roguetoaster]

That explains the United State's low rate of infection in children. But again, being infected does not mean they die. We are worried about death here. And if we are worried about death, we identify the people most vulnerable (to Covid) and we work around them. Kids are not dying by this. They factually are not. Old people, nursing home patients and people with generalized poor health are at risk.

School age kids are not killing their parents from this either. That has not been proven even a little. Could they kill grandma? Yeah, really only if she is ill, has diabetes or other severe health problems.

Once again, the kid's lives are not threatened by this disease. Period.

Kids are actually dying, perhaps not in great numbers, but they certainly are. and with more opportunity for exposure, the base number and rate will undoubtedly rise.

We don't know how true or untrue it is, no large studies have been completed, and it's a large unknown at this point. However, we know that parents are not one monolithic block of healthy people, and without a doubt there are many out there who are very susceptible to severe infection.

Once again, they are, and you are really the only person I have ever heard refute that children are at risk. That said, death is not the only lasting impact of CV, we have seen a plethora of long term issues, and not just in those with severe cases requiring hospitalization.

Ultimately, if parents are not given a choice other than to send their kids back to physical school without regard to their individual circumstances we are undoubtedly putting more people of all ages at risk unnecessarily. Alternative solutions are needed, including for those who wish to send their kids back to school, which is fine if they have considered circumstances rationally.

[marshallnoise]

Kids are actually dying, perhaps not in great numbers, but they certainly are. and with more opportunity for exposure, the base number and rate will undoubtedly rise.

We don't know how true or untrue it is, no large studies have been completed, and it's a large unknown at this point. However, we know that parents are not one monolithic block of healthy people, and without a doubt there are many out there who are very susceptible to severe infection.

Once again, they are, and you are really the only person I have ever heard refute that children are at risk. That said, death is not the only lasting impact of CV, we have seen a plethora of long term issues, and not just in those with severe cases requiring hospitalization.

Ultimately, if parents are not given a choice other than to send their kids back to physical school without regard to their individual circumstances we are undoubtedly putting more people of all ages at risk unnecessarily. Alternative solutions are needed, including for those who wish to send their kids back to school, which is fine if they have considered circumstances rationally.

I don't think its right to say "Kids are actually dying." Its ok to say that kids have died by Covid, but statistically, they are not. You have to be careful how you paint the picture.

Please, clarify for me: "Once again, they are, and you are really the only person I have ever heard refute that children are at risk." At risk for what? Death or infection? Because it is REALLY important. I am not saying and never have said that kids won't get infected. I said and will repeat saying, until data proves otherwise, that kids do not die from Coronavirus. Statistically, I am 100% right, even if 1000 kids die from Coronavirus, it really depends on the denominator of that equation. It is critical we have some perspective here. That is all I am trying to bring up.

I am 100% in agreement with your rational, thoughtful analysis of the situation in your last paragraph. We can have a reasonable debate over these things, but we cannot have a reasonable debate if the first thing out of someone's mouth is that the sky is falling and Covid is the new plague. That kind of hysteria is reserved for people who do not belong at the grown up table.