S54 advice and considerations

[Wanganstyle]

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!



using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.

yes, knowledge and time and education only the higher end consumers (like you) can stomach. Not for majority, but some can handle it very well. Most people doing random 24v swaps are not prepared to spend dyno time and dyno money on tuning, hardcore people are the exception-

one could re-tail an OEM S54 harness to e30 chassis yes, but the lay out is a bit different, using a m50 harness and adding S54 specific items and ecu tail if running MSS54 may be faster/cleaner in the long run-

Standalones are annoying to deal with, cost alot of time and money to make run well. AND the locked proprietary items annoy me, my old DTA Serial -> usb adapter broke and was proprietary and cost....$60 to replace?? for a serial cable WTF!

[nando]

yeah, that's why anything I do won't be proprietary. except hopefully, an end user could just plug it in, and forget about it.. but at the same time, I know that doesn't always happen. Even if everything is perfectly thought out, somebody will find a way to break it.

there's an MSS54 ecu on ebay for $300.. it's tempting! the problem with waiting until I actually have a motor is that will be a long while from now and I have much learning/research to do. my paypal balance is $288...

[hoveringuy]

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!

using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

[Wanganstyle]

yes, we are waiting for you to attack and show the general en-mass solution with common parts :)

E-throttle and analog throttle would both be welcome, analog more fun imo

s54 crank position sensor is VR and a 60-2 wheel in the crank, the S54 e36z3m AFM is perfect fit to chassis and s54

[dakon]

$100 for moving 6 wires to a different connector...... sounds fair.

I did not realize it was only 6 wires.. I was more saying the 100$ sounded fair due to my lack of knowledge/ ignorance i suppose..

[nando]

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

I agree. It's like a 2 wire ICV vs a 3 wire. better control, faster response. And, I really mean native control. I don't doubt the ability of your controllers!

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

right, but injector opening time (really injector end of pulse timing) is based off the position of the intake valve opening in relation to the crank. Having it all built in one ECU means you can adjust the valve timing, and the injector timing adjusts automatically. you can do it after you've played with VANOS, it will just take longer because injector timing can affect the AFR even with the same VE.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

do it! the more options that don't cost $5000, the better! :)

I'd thought about using a DBW controller from you. But I'm sticking to a cable for simplicity. Maybe some people will want the option - do you have any for sale?

[AlpineS50E30]

there are many options ...(depending on what you wanna spend).........my father has done a e30 me s54 swap with stock ecu......(bimmerworld software).....it runs perfect!!!
he's now doing 2 others(one of them his own).....with same software ...except he found someone in the uk to do it for less !!!!!!!!!!......he did not modify the engine harness....just the c101...the first car is on you tube (e30 s54)....red m3...check it out

[Leo_328i]

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

If you do this and make it work, your name will be in the same list as Lincoln, Patton, Einstein and Mandela.

[M3 euro ltw]

Apples and Oranges

Thought I'd chime in as I'm mentioned in several locations....

First of all, the idea the idea that you might spend $900 on a flashed DME for a transplant is hugely appealing obviously.

On an E30, there is no diagnostic plug you need to retain (like E36) and you could wire up very easily a modified E46 harness to run things. Just keep in mind some technical issues, like the chassis plugs that go into the DME won't be coming with the engine etc, and you'll need to buy pedal hardware/wires plugs etc, and install that for DBW....

But, you're also sort of stuck now with tuning. In UK, you may be able to visit a rolling road easily enough and fine tune each time you want to improve performance via headers, cams, intake changes etc.... a bit of a PIA to modify the code. Not as easy in the US, though EPIC can flash and tune the stock DME...

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

The independence that you get with a standalone is simply unparalleled.

Our recent foray into Traction Control has been a stellar success...and trust me, when you drop even a stock S54 with no bolt ons, and start at 315-320 at the rears, or bolt stuff on, and go to nearly 360 at the rears, you WILL appreciate having some TC available.

By the way, Jason and Jeff, local friends/customers should be added of course to the list of well executed S54 transplants on standalone...in E30 M3's of course.

For what its worth, I'm pretty backed up on orders currently, and it will be at least a couple of weeks before I could fairly even take on new orders for custom harnesses. But the DBW delete kits are available now, we are CNC machining the important bit, and it came out really, really nicely.


(see Rose in S14.net)

If you tackle a standalone on your own, make sure that the shop you go to for tuning has actual experience with starting from scratch on a standalone trying to map out 4 major maps simultaneously, fuel, timing, cam1 & cam2 for vanos... they're all interelated, and changing one obviously means that the other three are not necessarily optimized anymore. Do NOT assume that a "base map" you get from the manufacturer contains anything more that very, very basic configuration material, like tooth counts and angles for sensors etc... and for sure don't trust those either, they may not be correct.

[dakon]

Alex, what would it cost for me to get a DBW harness/ecu from you, would that be 1,500$ or more?

I'll try to call you later to ask more specific questions.

Right now, personally i am trying to get as much knowledge about the electronics as i can. I think i will be buying a harness from someone, but with that being said i would like to know what is available and realistic to be an educated consumer if you will.

[Wanganstyle]

Thought I'd chime in as I'm mentioned in several locations....

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

Standalone allows the owner to extract POWER from the S54. No way that stock ecu can do the same thing, its not a standalone-

My DTA S100 allowed me to dyno test every single injector and coil pack, also osiliscope the sensors - this is not average equipment!!!

I don't understand why people all gripe at the cost, its expensive to extract power, and wiring is hard work!!

[Teaguer]

Alex, what would it cost for me to get a DBW harness/ecu from you, would that be 1,500$ or more?

I'll try to call you later to ask more specific questions.

Right now, personally i am trying to get as much knowledge about the electronics as i can. I think i will be buying a harness from someone, but with that being said i would like to know what is available and realistic to be an educated consumer if you will.

There are lots of answers regarding the available options and pricing in this very thread.

Alex offers a harness to run a standalone DTA EMS. He doesn't offer reflashed stock DME's.

Expect to pay $2k for the required DTA box.

The absolute cheapest way to run a S54 in an e30 is to have the stock DME flashed in Germany coupled with a modified harness sourced from the UK or Bimmerworld.

The smartest as well as being cost effective is to get a harness from Alex coupled with the DTA EMS.

Not really gonna get cheaper than those two options right now.

[Wanganstyle]

for one looking to shove in a S54 and just drive it; you want OEM e-throttle adaptation and OEM brain.
These clients are not desiring nor prepared to handle tuning time and tuning $$$$/pain.

If desired to play the standalone ecu game, ABL is a very excellent choice. I spent my own money there.

[nando]

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

The independence that you get with a standalone is simply unparalleled.

Our recent foray into Traction Control has been a stellar success...and trust me, when you drop even a stock S54 with no bolt ons, and start at 315-320 at the rears, or bolt stuff on, and go to nearly 360 at the rears, you WILL appreciate having some TC available.

By the way, Jason and Jeff, local friends/customers should be added of course to the list of well executed S54 transplants on standalone...in E30 M3's of course.

For what its worth, I'm pretty backed up on orders currently, and it will be at least a couple of weeks before I could fairly even take on new orders for custom harnesses. But the DBW delete kits are available now, we are CNC machining the important bit, and it came out really, really nicely.


(see Rose in S14.net)

If you tackle a standalone on your own, make sure that the shop you go to for tuning has actual experience with starting from scratch on a standalone trying to map out 4 major maps simultaneously, fuel, timing, cam1 & cam2 for vanos... they're all interelated, and changing one obviously means that the other three are not necessarily optimized anymore. Do NOT assume that a "base map" you get from the manufacturer contains anything more that very, very basic configuration material, like tooth counts and angles for sensors etc... and for sure don't trust those either, they may not be correct.

standalone is definitely better from the engine's point of view. But it's definitely not for everyone. Especially since people don't want to share tunes they've spent a couple thousand in gas/dyno time on, you have a significant expense there. I'm budgeting for about 8 hours on the dyno to get things down (some can be done on the street but lots can't).

and yeah, don't trust base maps at all! I looked at a few base maps for the S54, not even one of them had the correct tooth #1 angle! they were all off 2-4 degrees. This is true of any standalone though, and not just for the S54. It's rare that somebody has the expertise to figure out all the little details, so they just guess or trust that the other guy got it right.

[nando]

I went ahead and picked up an MSS54 ECU. don't hate me for destroying it. :p