HD rocker arms ....lesson learned

[digger]

i used one of the hardness files and the 65HRC does nothing to the OE yet the 55HRC bites the HD

[zaq123]

HD as in what IE used to sell? I don't think those very Febi. I''m going to order OEM one just to compare ..good idea

[digger]

HD as in what IE used to sell? I don't think those very Febi. I''m going to order OEM one just to compare ..good idea

i am going by post #11

[zaq123]

OK I got OEM BMW rocker from the dealer so I can compare it to FEBI.. Surprise surprise ....Anyway for $50 for this "OEM" is what one is gonna get these days as OEM. Roker has FEBI marking as well, they aren't even trying to put BMW logo on it. So I got FEBI OEM style, This OEM BMW which is clearly not OEM anymore, FEBI HD and IE HD. I will take a few pics as they are all different. IE HD isn't FEBI HD as the pad is completely different btw

[hasa]

They should be OEM quality and fine for most of the applications excluding high power turbo engines.

[zinc]

I'm interested in the difference in the Febi HD and the IE HD, would be good to see some photos of that.

Were you running the Febi or IE HDs before zaq123?

The MM article mentions "In the summer of 2021, we ordered up every aftermarket M20 rocker arm we could find" so it's not clear exactly what they tested/checked.

I must have got some of the last remaining Febi HD's from bimmerheads last month and about to build a head with them. I noticed IE HDs are back in stock at the moment.

[TobyB]

OK I got OEM BMW rocker from the dealer so I can compare it to FEBI.. Surprise surprise ....Anyway for $50 for this "OEM" is what one is gonna get these days as OEM. Roker has FEBI marking as well, they aren't even trying to put BMW logo on it. So I got FEBI OEM style, This OEM BMW which is clearly not OEM anymore, FEBI HD and IE HD. I will take a few pics as they are all different. IE HD isn't FEBI HD as the pad is completely different btw

This has been BMW's way with the older cars for quite a while now. Put a sticker on it and mark it up 300%.
(Except for SOME stuff, which may still be very nice. But you never know.)
Even in 2005, the ONLY difference was that the Febi rocker had
a roundel on it if it came from the dealer. If it came from the aftermarket, the roundel pad simply wasn't cast.
I went through quite a few of them, back then...

I watched a lot of "HD" rockers eat their pads and the cams, and stayed away.
Like Digger, I found that the pad hardness and retention... wasn't good. Nor consistent.
I could never justify Lester Owen's rockers, so I picked the best of the Febis, and
with good valve springs, they worked to 7500.
Others who went higher had them x- rayed. and the rockers without internal voids would
go quite a bit higher.

t
saved the 'crappy' voidy Febis for street engines.

[zaq123]

I'm interested in the difference in the Febi HD and the IE HD, would be good to see some photos of that.

Were you running the Febi or IE HDs before zaq123?

The MM article mentions "In the summer of 2021, we ordered up every aftermarket M20 rocker arm we could find" so it's not clear exactly what they tested/checked.

I must have got some of the last remaining Febi HD's from bimmerheads last month and about to build a head with them. I noticed IE HDs are back in stock at the moment.

I was using IE HD in my built which I regret now. My cam got wiped as predicted by MM wishing 1k km. Obviously not like grinder away but damaged and IE rocker pads are excessively rooted. My oil pressure gauge always showed good pressure and proper assembly lube, proper break in oil, pre-start engine priming etc etc etc.
I'm gonna take some detailed pics to this post. Was busy with Holidays and stuff. From what I see, MM had IE HD in their article. My measurements show that IE HD pad is set lower than OEM rocker and its taller(longer). Basically pad arc is a segment of the circle of the larger diameter (if that makes sense ). Which increases a contact point at the cam and leaves less room for oil to remain on either side of this contact point. Not sure if it contributes to any lubrication issues that promotes the wear or simply because the pad is not hard enough.
Speaking of hardness, I have Tsubosan japanese hardness files which I want to use on these pads and compare their hardness. Files are within like 3-5 RHC so not super accurate test but I'm not interested in the exact RHC harness number but more so interested in which rocker has the hardest pad treatment. IE HD and FEBI HD have similar HD rocker body structure with similar areas machined. Basically if not for the IE HD pad sitting lower and being longer, I'd say they are exactly the same.

FEBI HD and regular FEBI has the same geometry and similar rocker pad length. FEBI HD pad is of a horrible quality compared to regular FEBI rocker. A lot of voids on the side of the pad which affect the pad contour on edges. So basicaly should one use HD body rocker so it won't break and just have this rocker pad destroy the cam? I'm e little sceptical about those FEBI HD rocker pad quality. Regular FEBI rocker looks to be of a much better quality. I also confirm what digger said about pad surface, my finger nail was filed down on FEBI HD pad surface vs regular FEBI noticeably faster, indicating rougher finish of the pad surface. IE HD pad surface finish in that regard was more similar to regular FEBI.

Again, I'll update this post soon with pad hardness test results and more pics. I have only old OEM BMW rockers to test. All worn but I guess I can still use them to test their pad hardness for a sake of this experiment.

Here are some pics I took of FEBI HD rockers. I was trying to read that number stamp near the pad (IE HD do no have that stamp) but the picture shows how horrible the pad is... with a chunk missing near the surface age due to metal voids. One wonders if this pad will be wearing off with chunks chipping away from the pad due to these voids. Good pad chunk getting caught between the cam and the rocker is gonna make some mess. Please note, I'm not talking about aluminium casting defects, I'm taking about the actual steel rocker pad.

[zaq123]

Also to add.. Just a hunch here. These FEBI HD is what I believe FEBI switched to from regular style FEBI. FEBI probably switched to using the same manufacturer for those as IE was (somewhere in China??) and what FEBI rockers gonna be from now on... when OEM looking FEBI are all sold from stock. Just a speculation obviously...

I ordered 18 Febi rockers. Out of 18, 12 came in old stock febi box as a set (all 12 oem style in one box, individually packaged but not labeled), 4 FEBI HD and 2 febi oem style, All 6 mixed extra rockers were individually packaged and labeled with the same part number

[zaq123]

OK Here it is. I tested old OEM BMW rocker, FEBI OEM style, FEBI HD and IE HD. OEM BMW and FEBI OEM body of the rocker appear to be identical as expected. Body of FEBI HD and IE HD appear to be the same as well.

First I tested the harness of the pad. OEM BMW and FEBI OEM appear to share similar hardness ~ 55HRC, it was the first file going up in HRC that started to scratch the surface. FEBI HD and IE HD pads appeared to be harder at around 65 HRC.
I also tested old OEM cam and the cab lobe harness sits around 55-60HRC. But I'd say closer to 60 as 55 file does mark consistency on every attempt. I tested on the unworn lobe surface (whatever wasn't eaten away by the rocker).

Additionally, BMW, FEBI and FEBI HD pads appear to be at the same plane and pads are the same size. Although FEBI OEM led surface finish is way nicer than FEBI HD (look at red led reflection). IE HD rocker pad is longer and sits lower than all other 3. Not sure why IE HD had this geometry changed but it's visible and consistent with what MM shows in his booklet (first post).

A few pictures

[zaq123]

More pictures

[zaq123]

FEBI HD vs IE HD. Clearly visible how much longer the pad is.



From L to R, old BMW, FEBI OEM, FEBI HD, IE HD

[litu]

i dont know, but in one FB group some is telling Febi 05828 would be same as bimmerheads HD rockers??

Also heard good from these
https://pure-pf.com/product/forged-steel-rocker-arm-m20/?currency=USD

https://beracingtuning.com/product/ppf-forged-steel-m20-rockers/?srsltid=AfmBOoocNVqRRCFsROIdfk2wRICt5q_zK_kWW9Qpe RnmJ16sZ_acpP8i

[zaq123]

What's a bummerheads HD rockers? I think those steel rockers are no good from what my research shows. Their geometry is completely different than M20 ones and I read about loose tolerances on the rocker shaft hole (no bronze bushing on those??) that can wipe the cam from rattling there or as a best case scenario, create very noisy engine.

I'd say if my built was a race car on the budget where I'm gonna ride that red line and I don't want a broken rocker , probably those are the answer. Who cares if the engine will be rebuilt after each race, new cam/rockers etc every race.
But my build is a performance oriented street car, I need my cam to last me awhile and obviously not to break a rocker. Quiet(er) motor would me nice too. Freaking balancing act

[digger]

The IE HD i have here are offset (appears to be by bigger radius pad by ~1mm ish 35mm vs 34mm) to suit the smaller base circle of a reground cam. They also extend the pads so the end of the pad doesn't dig into the lobe wiping the oil and causing high contact pressure. I have sample versions of the original IE HD with shorter pads and the newer IE HD with longer pads the hardness is much softer with the older IE HE circa 45-50 ish

The pads all look like crap surface finish compared to the earlier OE ones (even those circa 2008/10 were notably different to FEBI) and to me this is the biggest issue. i would get them professionally refinished