ZDDP Oil Additives

[E30_fiend]

You guys should just listen to John (forcedfirebird). All the reading you can do on the interwebs will not compete with his hands on actual experience. Done.

That's exactly right. All this theory crafting does you no good when someone with actual experience is involved. There's nothing I hate more than someone reading an article or a thread then thinking they know everything there is to know about everything. No amount of theory compares to hands on experience. Period.

John is correct. No need for any more discussion. As stated earlier in this thread, this topic has been covered a hundred times.


Taylor

[TrentW]

Just run the VR-1 or the GTX + Rislone or mobile 1. Your cat will be just fine as stated before. It has been seeing ZDDP for years on years now.

The now obsolete Kendall with the the old, I believe was SG rated, and have tons of ZDDP. The new SL rated is no where near what is used to be. When the EPA banished the SG rating the local parts stores could not sell it anymore so i went all over town and bought over 500 bottles for .15 each. That is teh only reason I still have some.

You guys should just listen to John (forcedfirebird). All the reading you can do on the interwebs will not compete with his hands on actual experience. Done.

That's exactly right. All this theory crafting does you no good when someone with actual experience is involved. There's nothing I hate more than someone reading an article or a thread then thinking they know everything there is to know about everything. No amount of theory compares to hands on experience. Period.

John is correct. No need for any more discussion. As stated earlier in this thread, this topic has been covered a hundred times.


Taylor

I agree with you both--I put a lot of faith in what John says, that's why I replied to this thread. He chimed in on my question over on E30tech, but when I asked about switching to Mobil 1 on an M20 with just over 200k on the bottom end and a rebuilt top end @ 185k I never got a response. I ask because awhile back Mike Miller recommended not switching to a synth oil in a higher mileage engine and others say it will cause leaks. Oil is a complex topic with lots of "fuzzy logic" and I'm hoping to get some empirical advice from a pro such as John. I'm going to switch to Mobil 1 as long as he thinks it's okay for my particular engine. It's much appreciated that we can get free, accurate advice from someone with knowledge btw.

So what say you John?

[Sirotto]

The only reason some people say do not go over to syn is it will find any leak you may have,. To me that is a good thing so you can start your repairs before they are fatal.

Or you old school and stubborn like me!

[bmwstephen]

I've been using the mobil 1 15w50 for a while and have no leaks. However, I've used OEM BMW filter for this oil. should I switch to the Mobil 1 filteR?

[nando]

stock filters are fine or any decent equivalent

[ForcedFirebird]

I agree with you both--I put a lot of faith in what John says, that's why I replied to this thread. He chimed in on my question over on E30tech, but when I asked about switching to Mobil 1 on an M20 with just over 200k on the bottom end and a rebuilt top end @ 185k I never got a response. I ask because awhile back Mike Miller recommended not switching to a synth oil in a higher mileage engine and others say it will cause leaks. Oil is a complex topic with lots of "fuzzy logic" and I'm hoping to get some empirical advice from a pro such as John. I'm going to switch to Mobil 1 as long as he thinks it's okay for my particular engine. It's much appreciated that we can get free, accurate advice from someone with knowledge btw.

So what say you John?

You missed my reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentW
So do you recommend switching even in higher mileage M20's? (over 200k on bottom end)


I run M1 in my DD/track car. The odo broke at 175k well before I bought it.

[ForcedFirebird]

stock filters are fine or any decent equivalent

Agreed. For the price and quality, the Purolator is good and generally what we use if we are out of Mann. They are made by the same company that makes Royal Purple and K&N. The cheap Fram filters have cardboard end caps.

EDIT: Look up videos on youtube where people cut open filters and make your own judgement.

[bmwstephen]

Agreed. For the price and quality, the Purolator is good and generally what we use if we are out of Mann. They are made by the same company that makes Royal Purple and K&N. The cheap Fram filters have cardboard end caps.

EDIT: Look up videos on youtube where people cut open filters and make your own judgement.

a little off topic but Jon, do you do filter relocation kits for ease of filter change at your shop?

[digger]

been said before use an oil good enough in the first place, one that doesn't need extra additives from those selling snake oil.

[TrentW]

The only reason some people say do not go over to syn is it will find any leak you may have,. To me that is a good thing so you can start your repairs before they are fatal.

Or you old school and stubborn like me!

Yes, I'm old school, will be 53 next month. Oh, and stubborn too, but willing to try Mobil 1.

You missed my reply:

Okay, thanks John. I'm gonna do an oil analysis on this change just for shits and giggles. The last one I did while running Castrol showed signs of borderline wear, but wasn't using additive.

[TobyB]

been said before use an oil good enough in the first place, one that doesn't need extra additives from those selling snake oil.

and it's still wrong.

The only high zddp Mobil 1 is the 15-50, and it's good for a street engine that's been broken
in. For breaking in a cam, the 'boutique' oils or break- in oils would be worth it-
expecially because a synthetic can sometimes inhibit ring seating.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Interestingly, the 0-40 is a bit higher, and the racing oil has enough for cam break-in.
If the bores are already mated to the rings.

It matters because when the cam wipes, it often takes the bearings, the rockers, the oil pump
and sometimes the pistons- and that really sucks.

t

[digger]

and it's still wrong.

The only high zddp Mobil 1 is the 15-50, and it's good for a street engine that's been broken
in. For breaking in a cam, the 'boutique' oils or break- in oils would be worth it-
expecially because a synthetic can sometimes inhibit ring seating.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Interestingly, the 0-40 is a bit higher, and the racing oil has enough for cam break-in.
If the bores are already mated to the rings.

It matters because when the cam wipes, it often takes the bearings, the rockers, the oil pump
and sometimes the pistons- and that really sucks.

t

probably 100's of thousands of M20 have been broken in without any special breakin oil or additive. for a engine with higher valve spring pressures and aggressive valvetrains worth it but not needed on a stockish build. i broke in my catcam 298 cam with beefy eibach valve springs on whatever i was using at the time. it still looks like new and that was 5 years ago.

[ForcedFirebird]

Interestingly, the 0-40 is a bit higher, and the racing oil has enough for cam break-in.

Re-read the link you posted. The 0-40 has LESS zddp and zinc than 15-50 (1000/1100 vs 1200/1300). Just like flat tapped pushrod cams, the m20 really should have 1200ppm minimum. I need to look around, but have photos of wiped m20 cams, along with flat tapped pushrod cams.

Been messing around with rebuilding motors since 1992 and always followed the same procedure/advice the old schoolers taught me back then. Break in with a heavy zinc conventional oil, then use whatever suites your tastes within the viscosity the clearances were designed for.

[nando]

and it's still wrong.

The only high zddp Mobil 1 is the 15-50, and it's good for a street engine that's been broken
in. For breaking in a cam, the 'boutique' oils or break- in oils would be worth it-
expecially because a synthetic can sometimes inhibit ring seating.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Interestingly, the 0-40 is a bit higher, and the racing oil has enough for cam break-in.
If the bores are already mated to the rings.

It matters because when the cam wipes, it often takes the bearings, the rockers, the oil pump
and sometimes the pistons- and that really sucks.

t

I'm not sure we're reading the same chart - the 0w40 is significantly less than the 15w50.

I don't even remember what oil I used for my cam break in. it might have actually been the 15w50, or it could have been whatever I already had in the motor at the time. that was in 2005 - still looks good. schrick didn't mention anything about using a special oil - I don't think oil is mentioned at all in their break in procedures.

just switched over to the 5w40 turbodiesel truck. I like this oil in the Subaru - seems to be working well so far in the M20. I can tell the difference in cold starts, and there's no extra noises. the ZDDP levels aren't much different than the 15w50.

[slammin.e28]

Re-read the link you posted. The 0-40 has LESS zddp and zinc than 15-50 (1000/1100 vs 1200/1300). Just like flat tapped pushrod cams, the m20 really should have 1200ppm minimum. I need to look around, but have photos of wiped m20 cams, along with flat tapped pushrod cams.

This is the cam in my GF's 535is.



Oil change sticker had "5w30 SYN" scrawled on it in black sharpie.

Car is still running fine. I put VR1 in it with BG MOA. Adjusted the valves and within a week that lobe wore more and you can here it tick tick tick over all the other light engine noises. I get some of this...



...each time I change the oil though.

VR1 or go home on M20/30s.