No more MT BMWs in 2019 - and why I'll never buy anything past an EXX series

[moatilliatta]

The m235iR has the Zf 8 speed. Crisp and bulletproof. Although you want a 6 speed in it?

I still giggle at electric cars. What? does electric just come out of the sky when you rub your socks on the staticy floor. Wrong, your car is probably coal powered. What happens when the market is no longer subsidized?

[Staszek]

I hate to say it, but I could not disagree more with some of these comments.

I think BMW is simply adapting to the industry just like everyone else. The Manual transmission is dead, I hate to say it, I love having one, I spent over a year trying to find my manual E60 M5.. I understand that.

Now, with that out of the way I think its important to look at there the industry is going. The 3 Series is dying, the Mercedes C class is dying, the luxury car market is failing, all of because of Tesla and that damn model 3.

The modern car buyer does not want a manual, the modern car buyer does not even want to drive anymore, all this stupid crap including Autopilot is simply taking driving away from us in general.

I think the only mistake BMW has made in the last 10 years is not paying attention to Tesla and being behind on the electric car side of the camp.

I've driven newer BMW's (albeit not the 2019's yet) and they are still great cars to drive, The 340I is a great car, the ZF 8 speed is a hell of a transmission, and the DCT in the M3/M4 is beast...

I was a bit unsure of the new M5 with the ZF Auto versus the DCT, but folks I've spoken with say its still as much as a wolf in sheeps clothing as its ever been.

Yes they make quite a few stupid cars (X1/X2/X4/X6, some of the GT classes, but I'd be more than happy to own a new M4 or M5, or a 340i ///M Sport, hell even the 230i is a fantastic car.

BMW isn't loosing focus, we are simply getting older and want these damn automatics off our front lawns.

My

I completely agree with this. Porsche who I would consider trying to stay more of a driver's car than BMW has been moving away from manuals at a much faster pace.

Do I love manual, sure its fun, and I will always have one around, but if you haven't driven a newer DSG they are pretty damn engaging and you can blip through gears like crazy.

There is a reason F1 cars are not manuals, its forward progress, not F1 losing their way.

That being said I do think BMW is dumbing down some of its models and they are too soft, but that is a different topic from manual transmissions that really no one is buying anymore.

[SOneThreeCoupe]

It doesn't matter how great the shift action of the 8-speed or how robust the design is if it isn't what I want. It's in a race car, neat- honestly. But... you've got a great transmission I don't need to experience in a car I don't want to drive.

Porsche offers a 7-speed manual. Don't care, it comes in a chassis IDGAF about. The PDK is an incredible piece of machinery that I'll likely never experience.

For me, it all boils down to the fact that the roads I drive for fun are tight, narrow and pretty slow. I don't want the grip or speed modern performance cars provide, nor do I want their width and weight. BMW can do what it wants with the entirety of the range and I don't care. I just want them to maintain enough profitability to reproduce classic parts for their cars I love.

I used to get bummed about manufacturers discontinuing "fun" cars or removing a manual option but I just don't care anymore. Every car I want to drive has already been made.

[nando]

We don't drive F1 cars and we're not F1 drivers. I DGAF about 0.2 second faster shift times. Most of the time I'm lucky if I can even do the speed limit - what good is a 4 second 0-60?

the ZF 8 speed is still an automatic. It's still going to drive me crazy by picking the wrong gears and bore me to tears. I don't want to play with flappy paddles, it's not a damn Xbox.

Even things like parking and reversing with an AT drive me crazy. Fast shift times in forward gears are one thing. I still have to wait for the stupid transmission to engage between R and D to back out of a parking spot or do a 3 point turn, which I can do way faster with manual control - I don't even have to wait for the car to stop completely to switch directions.

And don't even get me started on the horribly over-complicated shift lever mechanism BMW uses on modern AT cars.

[Staszek]

We don't drive F1 cars and we're not F1 drivers. I DGAF about 0.2 second faster shift times. Most of the time I'm lucky if I can even do the speed limit - what good is a 4 second 0-60?

the ZF 8 speed is still an automatic. It's still going to drive me crazy by picking the wrong gears and bore me to tears. I don't want to play with flappy paddles, it's not a damn Xbox.

Even things like parking and reversing with an AT drive me crazy. Fast shift times in forward gears are one thing. I still have to wait for the stupid transmission to engage between R and D to back out of a parking spot or do a 3 point turn, which I can do way faster with manual control - I don't even have to wait for the car to stop completely to switch directions.

And don't even get me started on the horribly over-complicated shift lever mechanism BMW uses on modern AT cars.

I agree with you on the modern AT mechanism, it sucks in our X5. My point was BMW isn't losing their way at least with transmissions, other things I can argue, its progress and except for a few people on these boards no one cares about manuals.

I could see the arguments in the 90's these cars and their dumb fuel injection, I cant adjust my cars carburetor!!!

We can all agree that there is some tech that we are going to miss, but progress happens in every area. Keep your car forever so you never have to drive a non-manual but that shouldn't stop BMW from moving forward, just like we are all not carrying around Motorola startacs anymore.

[nando]

BMWs were fuel injected in the 70s :p

How is having less choices progress?

[varg]

There is a reason F1 cars are not manuals, its forward progress, not F1 losing their way.

F1 is about lap times, millions of dollars, and rules. F1 has about as much to do with fun driving and driver's cars as botany does.

In this age nobody is making the argument that you're going to be beating the other guy by tenths because you have a manual and he doesn't, it's about personal preference and enjoyment. Moving away from having the choice for that isn't progress for anyone but the bean counters.

[Staszek]

BMWs were fuel injected in the 70s :p

How is having less choices progress?

True lol!

It depends on the choices. You can still get manuals in certain BMWs just not as many.

Should leaded fuel still be a choice?

I am agreeing with most, I am upset that there are less MT choices, but I also understand that it makes sense why there isn't.

[moatilliatta]

We shouldn't be directly mad at BMW. We should be mad at the Government, they have more force on this than BMW.

[E30 Wagen]

I wonder if emerging markets such as the Chinese middle/upper class are a factor in how automakers prioritize their design goals. In Europe and America we've had 100 years of car culture borne out of a freedom to travel, a booming industry, and racing. Even though more people (or maybe just picky auto journalists) are expecting automakers to incorporate more "technology" and convenience options, there's still a huge culture of driving enthusiasts that want a fun, manual transmission car. The problem is they're all cheap bastards. The used sports car market has never been hotter and restoration shops are always busy. We're as materialistic as ever but interestingly it's as much for things in the past as for the future. We no longer really care about "keeping up with the Joneses". However, I think cultures like China are at the start of that so premium brands are catering to markets demanding the shiniest and fanciest new thing. I bet nobody in China is remotely interested in a manual transmission because it's perceived as outdated. The life span of a car there is probably at most five years so I wouldn't be surprised if within ten years there's a whole industry of dismantler's in China trying to sell super low mileage engine/components, if not complete cars, to Europe and the US.

Is anybody in the US even buying 2 series? Personally I think they're ugly. I've only seen a few out in the wild and my dealership only has like one or two in stock. It's sad manuals are dying, but it's also frustrating that everything is getting so big. I'm really disappointed I didn't buy a new 1 series when I had the chance; that's going to be a huge cult car because it's just the right size. The lack of a small sporty coupe from BMW is really going to hurt them later on, unless they plan to abandon that market anyway.

I think another big factor is more people moving to urban areas, which is creating the market for electric and self-driving technology.

[Staszek]

I wonder if emerging markets such as the Chinese middle/upper class are a factor in how automakers prioritize their design goals. In Europe and America we've had 100 years of car culture borne out of a freedom to travel, a booming industry, and racing. Even though more people (or maybe just picky auto journalists) are expecting automakers to incorporate more "technology" and convenience options, there's still a huge culture of driving enthusiasts that want a fun, manual transmission car. The problem is they're all cheap bastards. The used sports car market has never been hotter and restoration shops are always busy. We're as materialistic as ever but interestingly it's as much for things in the past as for the future. We no longer really care about "keeping up with the Joneses". However, I think cultures like China are at the start of that so premium brands are catering to markets demanding the shiniest and fanciest new thing. I bet nobody in China is remotely interested in a manual transmission because it's perceived as outdated. The life span of a car there is probably at most five years so I wouldn't be surprised if within ten years there's a whole industry of dismantler's in China trying to sell super low mileage engine/components, if not complete cars, to Europe and the US.

Is anybody in the US even buying 2 series? Personally I think they're ugly. I've only seen a few out in the wild and my dealership only has like one or two in stock. It's sad manuals are dying, but it's also frustrating that everything is getting so big. I'm really disappointed I didn't buy a new 1 series when I had the chance; that's going to be a huge cult car because it's just the right size. The lack of a small sporty coupe from BMW is really going to hurt them later on, unless they plan to abandon that market anyway.

I think another big factor is more people moving to urban areas, which is creating the market for electric and self-driving technology.

I think you are wrong when you say there are huge amounts of people who still want manuals. If there was more uptake more car makers would produce them. If the volume is there, it's cheaper to make a manual then it is to make an auto, the automaker would go toward the cheaper option to manufacture, the demand is just not there.

There is definitely an enthusiast section that wants them, but if you look at the total population of the country it's really small.

As for the 2 series, I see a lot of them here in the Chicago area, and a decent amount when I am back in NJ.

The problem there is even though people are buying them, and there is an option for a manual, not many people are choosing them.

When I euro delivered my M3 in manual the guy showing the car to me said thank you, we rarely see anyone ordering these things in manual anymore.

[James Crivellone]

One other note I forgot to mention earlier. BMW Sales cares about one owner... The guy who walks into the dealership and buys a brand new car.

I have never bought a new BMW, and frankly have no ground to stand on complaining that BMW is getting rid of a manual gearbox.

Now if I bought a new car every 2 years from them and made those manual transmission sales numbers mean something, different story

However, as most of us are 2nd, 3rd, hell 10th owners of our cars, we didn't step up to the plate, due to financial, personal, whatever reasons, and thus we can't complain other than for the sake of complaining.

Also, as a guy who does a large amount of racing, I've driven manuals, DCT's, PDK, SMG, and standard auto's on the track.. and while rowing gears is fun, I've had a blast with modern DCT cars on the racetrack...

its ALL about sales numbers (yes, emissions has a part to play) but if millions of people a year walked into a dealership and said GIVE ME A 6SPEED 3 SERIES, you damn well bet they would still make them. However, per a friend of mine who sells BMW's at a local Northwest dealership, NOBODY wants them, nobody buys them. Now, when they come in on trade for CPO, etc they do sell rather quickly, to an enthusiast who did not want to spend 90k on a car, but instead wanted to buy one for 50k.

Look at the MX5 Miata, which has a damn near 50% take rate (I think higher actually, although I last read about this in 2016) on the manual transmission. You think they are going to get rid of it? Fat chance. Same with the FRS/BRZ. Cheap new cars that teenagers and folks into their 30's want a stick in.

[Staszek]

One other note I forgot to mention earlier. BMW Sales cares about one owner... The guy who walks into the dealership and buys a brand new car.

I have never bought a new BMW, and frankly have no ground to stand on complaining that BMW is getting rid of a manual gearbox.

Now if I bought a new car every 2 years from them and made those manual transmission sales numbers mean something, different story

However, as most of us are 2nd, 3rd, hell 10th owners of our cars, we didn't step up to the plate, due to financial, personal, whatever reasons, and thus we can't complain other than for the sake of complaining.

Also, as a guy who does a large amount of racing, I've driven manuals, DCT's, PDK, SMG, and standard auto's on the track.. and while rowing gears is fun, I've had a blast with modern DCT cars on the racetrack...

its ALL about sales numbers (yes, emissions has a part to play) but if millions of people a year walked into a dealership and said GIVE ME A 6SPEED 3 SERIES, you damn well bet they would still make them. However, per a friend of mine who sells BMW's at a local Northwest dealership, NOBODY wants them, nobody buys them. Now, when they come in on trade for CPO, etc they do sell rather quickly, to an enthusiast who did not want to spend 90k on a car, but instead wanted to buy one for 50k.

Look at the MX5 Miata, which has a damn near 50% take rate (I think higher actually, although I last read about this in 2016) on the manual transmission. You think they are going to get rid of it? Fat chance. Same with the FRS/BRZ. Cheap new cars that teenagers and folks into their 30's want a stick in.

Thanks for saying what I was trying too more eloquently :)

[E30 Wagen]

Yeah, the point I should have emphasized more is that while I believe there are a lot of enthusiasts who want a manual car, fewer of them can afford a new BMW, or any new car for that matter, compared to like 10-20 years ago. Also, even if they can afford one, I don't think enthusiasts are as interested in current BMWs as they were when great cars like the e46 M3 and e39 M5 were launched. So why make payments on something new when there are still clean examples of e46, e39, e92, etc, still floating around. Just like how people are paying a premium for old Porsches or Supras or NSXs.

[Stanley Rockafella]

I don't want the grip or speed modern performance cars provide, nor do I want their width and weight. BMW can do what it wants with the entirety of the range and I don't care. I just want them to maintain enough profitability to reproduce classic parts for their cars I love.

:hitler: