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Most efficient route to reach 350HP in an e30?

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    #31
    Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post


    Why not? Closed course. Can't trust the stock speedo, mine would indicate 140+ drafting when I know right well that's not 4.10 and 5th @ 6200 (GPS said 130-134). With the 180whp motor the speedo goes right around past all the tick marks.

    The 2.8 ITB car we built a few years ago buries the speedo - 7400 limiter and 4.10, also 225/45 bangs the limiter, it makes 212whp.

    I hope you mean NASCAR 1 & 2, the Rolex T1 at Daytona is a ~170° tight left. o.0
    The S52 speeds were at Fontana CA. With the S54 it was open road. I had an adjustable speedo with 160mph face, so the speeds were accurate on the cluster. Also corrected the gear ratios/rollouts in the MSS54 so that cruise control worked correctly.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Staszek View Post
      Someone mentioned the M62, its actually a really good cheap choice, tons of power, its heavy though so handling will suffer a bit.
      Tons of power? The hottest M62 makes a measly 342hp. Drop some nutty coin on aftermarket and you might see 400 at the crank. Such a swap is a lot of work for such lackluster power, especially considering the sacrifices that need to be made, such as the weight gain, cramped engine bay, and brake choices; a horrible eyesore of a remote booster setup, frankensteined hydraulic boost, a shockingly stupid single circuit manual setup, or a more difficult but unarguably superior dual circuit manual system usually by way of a pedal box if you're lucky enough to be pre airbag. An LS (no, not a fake LS made from an iron truck block with LS heads, a real aluminum LS) does the job better and easier than any M6X series engine
      @turbovarg
      '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
      [b u i l d]
      [Car of the month: April 2018]

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        #33
        Originally posted by varg View Post

        Tons of power? The hottest M62 makes a measly 342hp. Drop some nutty coin on aftermarket and you might see 400 at the crank. Such a swap is a lot of work for such lackluster power, especially considering the sacrifices that need to be made, such as the weight gain, cramped engine bay, and brake choices; a horrible eyesore of a remote booster setup, frankensteined hydraulic boost, a shockingly stupid single circuit manual setup, or a more difficult but unarguably superior dual circuit manual system usually by way of a pedal box if you're lucky enough to be pre airbag. An LS (no, not a fake LS made from an iron truck block with LS heads, a real aluminum LS) does the job better and easier than any M6X series engine
        Tons for the price compared to the M20/S50/2 combos without going turbo and its still cheap.

        Agreed not better than an LS though.
        Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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          #34
          That makes sense. The power delivery is definitely superior to the others you mentioned, let alone a turbo M20.

          IMO if you're going to V8 swap it doesn't make sense to do anything but an LS swap or maybe a hot 302, but the latter only makes sense if it is cheaper than the LS because the only advantage is that it's a little lighter. If you can build a fresh 302 that makes LS power for the price of a used LS, it makes more economic sense. I had plans to V8 swap my car but the issues with brakes, steering linkage/header clearance and cooling system with AC installed put me off of it. I'm keeping the V8 parts I have for future projects though. Turbo M20 is the best power for the money and fine for more power than is useful in the chassis. Turbo M50 is more weight but cheap and definitely superior from a power standpoint. Any other choice is mainly useful for better power delivery characteristics.

          Originally posted by Andrew325is View Post
          On a more serious note, why is 350hp the magic number? There is more to consider than just the power figure. You might want to explain to us how the car will be used. For example, for high speed spirited driving on the track, interstate, and rural roads S54 is a great option, but driving in the city feels like you're holding back a wild horse that can't breathe. For city driving and curvy roads you'll have more fun with a lightweight 4 cylinder like an M42. There are good reasons why BMW raced E30s with 4 bangers... You could slap a supercharger on one, but of course it'll cost serious coin to get it to 350hp. Also, the S54 doesn't need the dual pickup pump and pan unless it'll be used for very aggressive driving. Its Euro S50b30 sibling didn't have that (except for the limited GT).
          An M42 car is a couple of hundred pounds lighter than an M3, and an M42 lighter than an S14 by a fair amount.

          OP, definitely consider this because it's important. I agree on the question of why 350hp. I'll speak from experience on that. The bottom line is 350hp is a lot in an E30. These days, 350hp sounds like chump change because of how damn powerful modern cars are, but modern cars are heavy as hell compared to an E30! I initially set out to build an E30 that could smoke an E92 M3, then the goals crept upwards. Currently, on 15-16psi of boost, post wasted spark install, I can gap a current gen manual Mustang GT and just walk away from a 10 speed Mustang GT from a roll. An E92 M3 would need forced induction just to touch me. This while being heavily traction limited, with 200TW tires the power would be more useful. My buddy's '18 10 speed Mustang GT is a 460hp advertised car and I can just barely walk it. By the numbers; 460hp, but, ~3850lbs! 8.37lb/hp. My car weighs 2,766lbs with a full tank of gas, let's say I'm walking him because I make 8.3lb/hp; by the numbers I'd be making 333hp. Nice number, but as you can see that's a lot less than 350hp. Incredible, you can walk a really fast car like a new 10 speed Mustang GT with a 127hp disadvantage because of the weight advantage. I'm guessing that a lot of those powerful turbo E30s you've been seeing over the years featured in various places are making a lot less power than the dyno sheets tell you, a dyno is a tool and is only as good or as honest as its operator.

          This is coming from a guy who built his M20 swap with the intention of making over 400 to the wheels. I have enough injector, turbo, and clutch for it. Realistically all I need to do otherwise is turn up the boost and re-tune to make that a couple of times, so I don't pop the head gasket immediately I'd o-ring or MLS the engine to get there, and I'd like to upgrade the cam... But I haven't done it, because I don't really need to. This car shreds the Continental Extremecontact Sports with the power it has now and I'm running a highway gear in the diff, 3.25 ratio. With a 3.73 or higher I'd need drag radials to not be traction limited through third gear. 350hp is a lot in an E30. A 1/4mi time or target car to gap is a better goal.
          Last edited by varg; 03-25-2020, 07:02 AM.
          @turbovarg
          '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
          [b u i l d]
          [Car of the month: April 2018]

          0c8b7c9527af628a346878feb14bf757

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            #35
            Originally posted by varg View Post
            That makes sense. The power delivery is definitely superior to the others you mentioned, let alone a turbo M20.

            IMO if you're going to V8 swap it doesn't make sense to do anything but an LS swap or maybe a hot 302, but the latter only makes sense if it is cheaper than the LS because the only advantage is that it's a little lighter. If you can build a fresh 302 that makes LS power for the price of a used LS, it makes more economic sense. I had plans to V8 swap my car but the issues with brakes, steering linkage/header clearance and cooling system with AC installed put me off of it. I'm keeping the V8 parts I have for future projects though. Turbo M20 is the best power for the money and fine for more power than is useful in the chassis. Turbo M50 is more weight but cheap and definitely superior from a power standpoint. Any other choice is mainly useful for better power delivery characteristics.



            An M42 car is a couple of hundred pounds lighter than an M3, and an M42 lighter than an S14 by a fair amount.

            OP, definitely consider this because it's important. I agree on the question of why 350hp. I'll speak from experience on that. The bottom line is 350hp is a lot in an E30. These days, 350hp sounds like chump change because of how damn powerful modern cars are, but modern cars are heavy as hell compared to an E30! I initially set out to build an E30 that could smoke an E92 M3, then the goals crept upwards. Currently, on 15-16psi of boost, post wasted spark install, I can gap a current gen manual Mustang GT and just walk away from a 10 speed Mustang GT from a roll. An E92 M3 would need forced induction just to touch me. This while being heavily traction limited, with 200TW tires the power would be more useful. My buddy's '18 10 speed Mustang GT is a 460hp advertised car and I can just barely walk it. By the numbers; 460hp, but, ~3850lbs! 8.37lb/hp. My car weighs 2,766lbs with a full tank of gas, let's say I'm walking him because I make 8.3lb/hp; by the numbers I'd be making 333hp. Nice number, but as you can see that's a lot less than 350hp. Incredible, you can walk a really fast car like a new 10 speed Mustang GT with a 127hp disadvantage because of the weight advantage. I'm guessing that a lot of those powerful turbo E30s you've been seeing over the years featured in various places are making a lot less power than the dyno sheets tell you, a dyno is a tool and is only as good or as honest as its operator.

            This is coming from a guy who built his M20 swap with the intention of making over 400 to the wheels. I have enough injector, turbo, and clutch for it. Realistically all I need to do otherwise is turn up the boost and re-tune to make that a couple of times, so I don't pop the head gasket immediately I'd o-ring or MLS the engine to get there, and I'd like to upgrade the cam... But I haven't done it, because I don't really need to. This car shreds the Continental Extremecontact Sports with the power it has now and I'm running a highway gear in the diff, 3.25 ratio. With a 3.73 or higher I'd need drag radials to not be traction limited through third gear. 350hp is a lot in an E30. A 1/4mi time or target car to gap is a better goal.
            Really good point! I feel like my S54 which is pretty much putting slightly better then stock power down is WAY more than this car needs.

            It smokes my E93 M3 (mostly because that thing is damn heavy), and I am sure many other cars I havent tested yet. Traction (and I am not running your power) is more of a problem than anything.
            Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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              #36
              I'm guessing you're making more power than I am, but a lot less torque. The 333hp I arrived at doing the power to weight math makes sense for a 1.1atm boosted but otherwise completely stock engine. I'm suspicious of extraordinary gains from boost and I'd rather underestimate my output than overestimate.
              @turbovarg
              '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
              [b u i l d]
              [Car of the month: April 2018]

              0c8b7c9527af628a346878feb14bf757

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                #37
                Originally posted by varg View Post
                I'm guessing you're making more power than I am, but a lot less torque. The 333hp I arrived at doing the power to weight math makes sense for a 1.1atm boosted but otherwise completely stock engine. I'm suspicious of extraordinary gains from boost and I'd rather underestimate my output than overestimate.
                Yea you will definitely have more TQ and a lot lower than I am which roasts more tires. You are geared lower than me though I am running 3.46, the E46 guys run 4.10s but they have more traction and are heavier, I thought anything that high was too aggressive for normal driving in this car.
                Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Staszek View Post
                  and a lot lower than I am
                  Getting a little off topic here but I guarantee I am not a lot lower than anyone short of the IX guys. 24.5" ground to fender arch rear 25.5" front. AFAIK that's 1" front 0.25" rear drop. Tire height (when new) 24.9", they're pretty worn out now.
                  @turbovarg
                  '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
                  [b u i l d]
                  [Car of the month: April 2018]

                  0c8b7c9527af628a346878feb14bf757

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by varg View Post

                    Getting a little off topic here but I guarantee I am not a lot lower than anyone short of the IX guys. 24.5" ground to fender arch rear 25.5" front. AFAIK that's 1" front 0.25" rear drop. Tire height (when new) 24.9", they're pretty worn out now.
                    Haha meant lower RPM for your TQ.
                    Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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                      #40
                      Nobody has said Tesla swap yet??? But I do agree with others it depends on your goals. My s52 felt like a riot to drive. My s54 in a lot of ways is just silly. With my current setup 4.10 and 225 s-drives you have to really be careful when you apply the gas in 1st and 2nd.
                      Build Thread: Ryan's Hennarot 318is
                      COTM Aug 2019

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Staszek View Post

                        Yea you will definitely have more TQ and a lot lower than I am which roasts more tires. You are geared lower than me though I am running 3.46, the E46 guys run 4.10s but they have more traction and are heavier, I thought anything that high was too aggressive for normal driving in this car.
                        WIth a 3.73 and 235/40/17s, your have the same rollout as an E46 M3 with 4.10 and its taller tires....

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by rjmcdermott81 View Post
                          Nobody has said Tesla swap yet??? But I do agree with others it depends on your goals. My s52 felt like a riot to drive. My s54 in a lot of ways is just silly. With my current setup 4.10 and 225 s-drives you have to really be careful when you apply the gas in 1st and 2nd.
                          I did an s54 swap not long ago and the client immediately spun the car and was facing oncoming traffic the day he picked it up. Lol. He has owned the car for 16yr and it was always a tired m42 prior.
                          john@m20guru.com
                          Links:
                          Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by R3Z3N View Post

                            WIth a 3.73 and 235/40/17s, your have the same rollout as an E46 M3 with 4.10 and its taller tires....
                            I dont have a 3.73 though I have a 3.46 just for that reason :)

                            Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by rjmcdermott81 View Post
                              Nobody has said Tesla swap yet??? But I do agree with others it depends on your goals. My s52 felt like a riot to drive. My s54 in a lot of ways is just silly. With my current setup 4.10 and 225 s-drives you have to really be careful when you apply the gas in 1st and 2nd.
                              There is a Tesla Swapped Mtech Convertible.

                              https://www.thedrive.com/news/29886/...ow-light-again
                              Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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                                #45
                                https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...th-tesla-power
                                Originally posted by Staszek View Post

                                There is a Tesla Swapped Mtech Convertible.

                                https://www.thedrive.com/news/29886/...ow-light-again
                                Volk's car...

                                https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...th-tesla-power
                                john@m20guru.com
                                Links:
                                Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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