Originally posted by ForcedFirebird
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Most efficient route to reach 350HP in an e30?
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Originally posted by Staszek View PostSomeone mentioned the M62, its actually a really good cheap choice, tons of power, its heavy though so handling will suffer a bit.
IG @turbovarg
'91 318is, M20 turbo
[CoTM: 4-18]
'94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust - updated 3-17
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Originally posted by varg View Post
Tons of power? The hottest M62 makes a measly 342hp. Drop some nutty coin on aftermarket and you might see 400 at the crank. Such a swap is a lot of work for such lackluster power, especially considering the sacrifices that need to be made, such as the weight gain, cramped engine bay, and brake choices; a horrible eyesore of a remote booster setup, frankensteined hydraulic boost, a shockingly stupid single circuit manual setup, or a more difficult but unarguably superior dual circuit manual system usually by way of a pedal box if you're lucky enough to be pre airbag. An LS (no, not a fake LS made from an iron truck block with LS heads, a real aluminum LS) does the job better and easier than any M6X series engine
Agreed not better than an LS though.
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That makes sense. The power delivery is definitely superior to the others you mentioned, let alone a turbo M20.
IMO if you're going to V8 swap it doesn't make sense to do anything but an LS swap or maybe a hot 302, but the latter only makes sense if it is cheaper than the LS because the only advantage is that it's a little lighter. If you can build a fresh 302 that makes LS power for the price of a used LS, it makes more economic sense. I had plans to V8 swap my car but the issues with brakes, steering linkage/header clearance and cooling system with AC installed put me off of it. I'm keeping the V8 parts I have for future projects though. Turbo M20 is the best power for the money and fine for more power than is useful in the chassis. Turbo M50 is more weight but cheap and definitely superior from a power standpoint. Any other choice is mainly useful for better power delivery characteristics.
Originally posted by Andrew325is View PostOn a more serious note, why is 350hp the magic number? There is more to consider than just the power figure. You might want to explain to us how the car will be used. For example, for high speed spirited driving on the track, interstate, and rural roads S54 is a great option, but driving in the city feels like you're holding back a wild horse that can't breathe. For city driving and curvy roads you'll have more fun with a lightweight 4 cylinder like an M42. There are good reasons why BMW raced E30s with 4 bangers... You could slap a supercharger on one, but of course it'll cost serious coin to get it to 350hp. Also, the S54 doesn't need the dual pickup pump and pan unless it'll be used for very aggressive driving. Its Euro S50b30 sibling didn't have that (except for the limited GT).
OP, definitely consider this because it's important. I agree on the question of why 350hp. I'll speak from experience on that. The bottom line is 350hp is a lot in an E30. These days, 350hp sounds like chump change because of how damn powerful modern cars are, but modern cars are heavy as hell compared to an E30! I initially set out to build an E30 that could smoke an E92 M3, then the goals crept upwards. Currently, on 15-16psi of boost, post wasted spark install, I can gap a current gen manual Mustang GT and just walk away from a 10 speed Mustang GT from a roll. An E92 M3 would need forced induction just to touch me. This while being heavily traction limited, with 200TW tires the power would be more useful. My buddy's '18 10 speed Mustang GT is a 460hp advertised car and I can just barely walk it. By the numbers; 460hp, but, ~3850lbs! 8.37lb/hp. My car weighs 2,766lbs with a full tank of gas, let's say I'm walking him because I make 8.3lb/hp; by the numbers I'd be making 333hp. Nice number, but as you can see that's a lot less than 350hp. Incredible, you can walk a really fast car like a new 10 speed Mustang GT with a 127hp disadvantage because of the weight advantage. I'm guessing that a lot of those powerful turbo E30s you've been seeing over the years featured in various places are making a lot less power than the dyno sheets tell you, a dyno is a tool and is only as good or as honest as its operator.
This is coming from a guy who built his M20 swap with the intention of making over 400 to the wheels. I have enough injector, turbo, and clutch for it. Realistically all I need to do otherwise is turn up the boost and re-tune to make that a couple of times, so I don't pop the head gasket immediately I'd o-ring or MLS the engine to get there, and I'd like to upgrade the cam... But I haven't done it, because I don't really need to. This car shreds the Continental Extremecontact Sports with the power it has now and I'm running a highway gear in the diff, 3.25 ratio. With a 3.73 or higher I'd need drag radials to not be traction limited through third gear. 350hp is a lot in an E30. A 1/4mi time or target car to gap is a better goal.Last edited by varg; 03-25-2020, 07:02 AM.
IG @turbovarg
'91 318is, M20 turbo
[CoTM: 4-18]
'94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust - updated 3-17
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Originally posted by varg View PostThat makes sense. The power delivery is definitely superior to the others you mentioned, let alone a turbo M20.
IMO if you're going to V8 swap it doesn't make sense to do anything but an LS swap or maybe a hot 302, but the latter only makes sense if it is cheaper than the LS because the only advantage is that it's a little lighter. If you can build a fresh 302 that makes LS power for the price of a used LS, it makes more economic sense. I had plans to V8 swap my car but the issues with brakes, steering linkage/header clearance and cooling system with AC installed put me off of it. I'm keeping the V8 parts I have for future projects though. Turbo M20 is the best power for the money and fine for more power than is useful in the chassis. Turbo M50 is more weight but cheap and definitely superior from a power standpoint. Any other choice is mainly useful for better power delivery characteristics.
An M42 car is a couple of hundred pounds lighter than an M3, and an M42 lighter than an S14 by a fair amount.
OP, definitely consider this because it's important. I agree on the question of why 350hp. I'll speak from experience on that. The bottom line is 350hp is a lot in an E30. These days, 350hp sounds like chump change because of how damn powerful modern cars are, but modern cars are heavy as hell compared to an E30! I initially set out to build an E30 that could smoke an E92 M3, then the goals crept upwards. Currently, on 15-16psi of boost, post wasted spark install, I can gap a current gen manual Mustang GT and just walk away from a 10 speed Mustang GT from a roll. An E92 M3 would need forced induction just to touch me. This while being heavily traction limited, with 200TW tires the power would be more useful. My buddy's '18 10 speed Mustang GT is a 460hp advertised car and I can just barely walk it. By the numbers; 460hp, but, ~3850lbs! 8.37lb/hp. My car weighs 2,766lbs with a full tank of gas, let's say I'm walking him because I make 8.3lb/hp; by the numbers I'd be making 333hp. Nice number, but as you can see that's a lot less than 350hp. Incredible, you can walk a really fast car like a new 10 speed Mustang GT with a 127hp disadvantage because of the weight advantage. I'm guessing that a lot of those powerful turbo E30s you've been seeing over the years featured in various places are making a lot less power than the dyno sheets tell you, a dyno is a tool and is only as good or as honest as its operator.
This is coming from a guy who built his M20 swap with the intention of making over 400 to the wheels. I have enough injector, turbo, and clutch for it. Realistically all I need to do otherwise is turn up the boost and re-tune to make that a couple of times, so I don't pop the head gasket immediately I'd o-ring or MLS the engine to get there, and I'd like to upgrade the cam... But I haven't done it, because I don't really need to. This car shreds the Continental Extremecontact Sports with the power it has now and I'm running a highway gear in the diff, 3.25 ratio. With a 3.73 or higher I'd need drag radials to not be traction limited through third gear. 350hp is a lot in an E30. A 1/4mi time or target car to gap is a better goal.
It smokes my E93 M3 (mostly because that thing is damn heavy), and I am sure many other cars I havent tested yet. Traction (and I am not running your power) is more of a problem than anything.
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I'm guessing you're making more power than I am, but a lot less torque. The 333hp I arrived at doing the power to weight math makes sense for a 1.1atm boosted but otherwise completely stock engine. I'm suspicious of extraordinary gains from boost and I'd rather underestimate my output than overestimate.
IG @turbovarg
'91 318is, M20 turbo
[CoTM: 4-18]
'94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust - updated 3-17
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Originally posted by varg View PostI'm guessing you're making more power than I am, but a lot less torque. The 333hp I arrived at doing the power to weight math makes sense for a 1.1atm boosted but otherwise completely stock engine. I'm suspicious of extraordinary gains from boost and I'd rather underestimate my output than overestimate.
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Originally posted by Staszek View Postand a lot lower than I am
IG @turbovarg
'91 318is, M20 turbo
[CoTM: 4-18]
'94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust - updated 3-17
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Originally posted by varg View Post
Getting a little off topic here but I guarantee I am not a lot lower than anyone short of the IX guys. 24.5" ground to fender arch rear 25.5" front. AFAIK that's 1" front 0.25" rear drop. Tire height (when new) 24.9", they're pretty worn out now.
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Originally posted by Staszek View Post
Yea you will definitely have more TQ and a lot lower than I am which roasts more tires. You are geared lower than me though I am running 3.46, the E46 guys run 4.10s but they have more traction and are heavier, I thought anything that high was too aggressive for normal driving in this car.
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Originally posted by rjmcdermott81 View PostNobody has said Tesla swap yet??? But I do agree with others it depends on your goals. My s52 felt like a riot to drive. My s54 in a lot of ways is just silly. With my current setup 4.10 and 225 s-drives you have to really be careful when you apply the gas in 1st and 2nd.
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Originally posted by R3Z3N View Post
WIth a 3.73 and 235/40/17s, your have the same rollout as an E46 M3 with 4.10 and its taller tires....
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Originally posted by rjmcdermott81 View PostNobody has said Tesla swap yet??? But I do agree with others it depends on your goals. My s52 felt like a riot to drive. My s54 in a lot of ways is just silly. With my current setup 4.10 and 225 s-drives you have to really be careful when you apply the gas in 1st and 2nd.
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https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...th-tesla-powerOriginally posted by Staszek View Post
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