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    Delanoso's 2.9L Build

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Salacoa Road.jpg Views:	1 Size:	72.6 KB ID:	9936642

    Fun fact, I've owned this car since 1992 - I was 22. It was my daily driver for 10 pIus years with all of the wear and tear that comes with that. It got me through college and I promised myself I'd rebuild it when I had the money. It took me 15 years to get to that point and it was off the road for 13 of those. It's been through a lot - feast, fire and famine - and it's finally getting its due care. As my daily driver, it got Eibach touring springs, Dinan sway bars and 16" BBS wheels and a chip for the eta. In the last two years it's had all suspension bushings replaced, a full brakes rebuild with braided steel lines, a full fuel system rebuild, a 3.46 lsd swap, ZHP rack replacement and a rebuilt 2.9L M20 that recently went in the car. I'm probably missing a few things but those are the main build specs.


    Click image for larger version  Name:	2.9L M20.jpg Views:	1 Size:	83.3 KB ID:	9936641

    The M20 is the current project. 84mm M52 crank, 85mm 9.75:1 compression ratio Ross Racing pistons, 135mm rods, Schrick 272 cam, heavy duty rockers and some port and polish work. IE shorty headers and a cat delete custom exhaust went on shortly after I got the car back. Currently running the stock ecu and intake side but that’s where I’m focused now. The owner of the shop that built the engine told me it made 198whp/210wtq on a dyno where he got the stock ecu chip tuned but I felt like that was very optimistic after driving it for a day or two. It idles rough and has the classic M20 hesitation off idle. It also feels kind of dead after about 5K RPMs. However, the dyno plot below from Friday afternoon isn’t what I was expecting either. I pretty much immediately called him and didn’t pull punches. Monday/Tuesday he’s going to call his tuner and his machine shop to see what he hears.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Dyno Plot.jpg Views:	1 Size:	39.4 KB ID:	9936640


    I have a MSPNP ready to go in with all the trimmings but I'm not sure if I should make that change until I get word from the shop.

    Anyway, that's where things stand. If you're curious about the past feel free to ask.
    Last edited by Delanoso; 07-08-2020, 03:55 AM.

    #2
    Moving discussion here so Mrlucretious can have his thread back.

    ForcedFirebird

    198 is a little optimistic, but not out of the realm of possibility. One of our clients is making 208/189 with our head, stock size ST valves, 288 cam, b25 crank and 12.5:1 pistons (lightened/balanced everything).

    Oh, stock ECU? Put the air box back in. That little funnel on the front of the AFM is worth 5whp on a bone stock engine (-5whp when removed).

    Yeah, those numbers are way off. My stock Spec-legal rebuilds make ~160-65whp with a stock chip. We have two race cars with JY hodge-podge 9.4:1 b27's and they both make almost exactly 180/180 at the wheels, one is on MS dyno tuned, the other is using a chip I wrote during the dyno tune (stock ecu, stock injectors).

    You have a major drop in the curve at 4500 rpm. The stock ECU pulls timing there.

    Who's chip are you using? Can you get the AFR graphs for that dyno pull?

    EDIT: also noticed the dyno curve getting "wiggly" after ~4500. Might want to check your ignition system, they tend to break up starting there when there's an issue. The CPS likes to break where the wire goes into the sensor, the wire likes to rub on the back of the water pump pulley, or the ECU is unhappy with the air gap. The two 13mm hex head screws that hold the CPS in place can be slightly loosened and the bracket can move around to adjust. Use a .030" feeler gauge, or thick business card for a shim. Make sure the CPS reads 540ohm, and have a helper wiggle the wire where it goes into the sensor while doing the ohm test. And finally there's supposed to be a plastic conduit on the timing cover to house the CPS and oil sensor wires. On the race cars, we run the wire over the timing cover just to avoid these issues.
    The chip is a proprietary to the tuner who did the original dyno work. As far as I know it's not a MarkD or anything like that. Another reason I'd like to move to the MS ecu - that tuner won't give us the maps or files for the tune. We can pull them raw but then I have to figure out how to read the code, which is doable but not fun.

    The CPS is good catch and makes a ton of sense, considering how it feels in that range I'll check into that. Thanks already!
    Last edited by Delanoso; 07-05-2020, 02:44 PM.

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      #3
      mrlucretius

      Hi,

      1) I would try to run the mega squirt with the wide band O2. I did this on the stock motor and it ran and pulled much better than with a stock ecu. I can help you get all the settings right. I would not trust a "tuned" stock ecu. With the mega squirt you can take logs and see afrs and all the sensors to help you get everything setup right. With stock ecu you are running pretty blind.

      2) I had issues with ignition. Your dyno plots look kindof like ignition issues. ForcedFirebird may have some hints to use stock ignition (same or different plugs with smaller gap IIRC?). I went overkill with wasted spark and coil pack and drivers.

      3) Separate note: I got my motor running in "Blended / ITB" mode (MAP and Alpha-N combined), after manually adjusting some of the VE table, then driving around on auto tune, then manually smoothing out the VE table. Seems like it runs and drives a bit better and I definitely now have full load resolution with the TPS... The original attempt to run alpha-n just needed VE adjustments that I did not know how to do at that time. Now I have it sorted.

      So I am ready for another dyno session... Next time I want to burn some more dollars!

      -Alex
      I'm definitely getting rid of the stock ecu, I just want to make sure I have the engine I paid for before I do that. I'd prefer not to get into the coil packs if I can get away with it. But I'm also happy to invest if it's what the engine wants. I think for the the CPS needs some attention. I'll see if I can follow the directions above.

      Comment


        #4
        digger

        I wouldn’t expect more than 170-180whp with stock head and intake with baby cam. Torque should be 180-190. One way or another you’d want to ditch the motronic
        The head is ported and polished with a few other small adjustments. I don't think its a full on stage 3 but it's not stock. Schrick 272 and heavy duty rockers if not over sized valves. I feel like that's worth 180whp, specifically if I can get rid of the stock ecu and intake.

        Comment


          #5
          I’d want to get to the bottom of why the guy who built and installed engine and had it tuned told you those numbers and where the printout is. Either the shop is lying, the tuner is lying or something happened recently. I know where my bets are going

          89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works, stroked to the hilt...

          new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

          Comment


            #6
            That's exactly what I told the owner of the shop. Literally, "either you lied to me or your tuner lied to you." I asked for a copy of the run and I was told the printer was broken. That's where my skepticism started, also why I put the car on an independent dyno. I'm betting I paid for dyno tuning I didn't get. He slapped a tune in the ECU, made it run well enough to get by and called it good.

            The shop is investigating. We'll see what he has to say probably Tuesday.

            Comment


              #7
              Verify the ECU is seeing WOT maps. The difference between the higher part throttle cells (1x8 cells on the right side) and WOT (1x8 cells in it's own map) is ° of timing at MBT. If the throttle switch is broken, it really robs the power at MBT. You can see the difference At 4800 you go from 22° down to 13° when the throttle switch is broken.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	Stock 173 timing maps.jpg Views:	0 Size:	66.5 KB ID:	9936777

              https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...ad#post9875136

              First two graphs in that thread show how important the TPS is for the stock ECU.

              Also, with the new information about your build in this thread, I agree with Digger on the lower numbers. You have .3:1 more compression than our race cars, and we are using 81mm cranks to make 180/180. You should be slightly higher as once of the cars is using a completely stock head with just our valve job ans 272, the other is using a stock cam/head, but has headers and intake work. A few years ago we installed/tuned a 2.8 budget stroker using stock b25 +.5mm pistons, but the owner didn't shave the block. IStock intake, ECU (we chip tuned locally), stock headers and it put down ~170.

              EDIT: To add, when you have too LITTLE timing at MBT, the graph also gets "wiggly" like that. When driving, does the car feel like it struggles up to 5000, then has a little "boost" at the top - almost like a big cam, or low/laggy boost coming on?
              Last edited by ForcedFirebird; 07-06-2020, 05:18 AM.
              john@m20guru.com
              Links:
              Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

              Comment


                #8
                I've read through that thread a number of times and I learn something new every time, I think. It's my understanding that I have new sensors in my new engine. I assumed that they were installed correctly because this shop races Spec e30 cars (incidentally, he said the same thing about his race cars - they make about 160/160). I'll check those tonight while I wait for information and my new wideband controller to get in. Something productive to do.

                The car feels a lot like the dyno curve suggests. It's a little touchy and frequently doesn't respond to throttle input the way I'd expect. Under the right circumstances, it starts building real power at about 2500 and pulls nicely right up to that +/-4800 mark. At that point it planes out and sometimes feels wiggly. Reminds me of the old eta engine it had, just a little more. I really feel like the AFRs are bad but I have no concrete data on that right now. I called about the AFRs on that dyno fun from Friday and they said they didn't capture them. Why would you do that? I suppose they weren't looking to tune at that point so it didn't really matter? As soon as I get my wideband I'm going to try to get that installed as prep for the megasquirt install. That should at least give me anecdotal evidence.

                A question here: I notice that at 5240 RPM and WOT, timing is 15 degrees and at 5220 and high part throttle, timing is 23 degrees. Is that because MBT moves upward a little at WOT?

                Comment


                  #9
                  At WOT, the ECU is expecting the RPM's to go by very fast, so it disregards many sensors (basically open loop). I bet your AFR's were all screwy since the ECU can't keep up with the RPM changes.

                  When doing custom and performance chips, I tend to have a much better blend between WOT and part throttle, so that if the switch ever does go bad, the engine still runs near optimal.

                  Not sure why the dyno didn't capture AFR's, unless they just didn't bother to hook it up. Many places have lost of cars that come in just for a HP number.

                  The ignition has to do with the load in that cell. So, if you have your foot light on the throttle cruising at 5000rpm, you can have a lot more advance and less fuel - than if you are ripping through the gears with tons of load. That's why the ECU will be in closed loop for cruising and open loop (ignoring some load [aka AFM], CTS, and o2 feedback).
                  john@m20guru.com
                  Links:
                  Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                    #10
                    Verified my sensors last night. The CPS was 526 Ohms and the gap was .025" can that be too close? The TPS was open across pins 1 and 3, and short between 1 and ground with the throttle closed and pin 3 grounded at about 70% through the throttle movement range. I can hear the switch engage from closed to part throttle *right* at the limit. Pretty much any engagement would switch to part throttle maps. That seems correct to me.

                    I get that the same RPM at very different loads would have very different advance values. The ones I was asking about were 5220 and 190 (23 degrees) and 5240 on the WOT map (15 degrees). Those seem consecutive and a small hill could send you from one to the other, correct? Or am I making too much out of 8 degrees?
                    Last edited by Delanoso; 07-07-2020, 08:56 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      It's not the 8°, it's the ability for the ECU to "catch" what's going on. 8° can be the difference between going fast, and fighting detonation.To "jump" from map to map, you would have to be playing with the WOT switch, not just going up/down a hill, the AFM will show load.

                      There's a lot of math going on in an ECU. The main timing table is just one part, and sorry if it's confusing, but that pic was just to show what happens if the TPS is bad. There's other multipliers in the grand scheme of things. The CTS, IAT etc all have an effect on final values in a running engine (that table gets "multiplied" by other tables to make adjustments).

                      OK, so the TPS checks out. .025" should be fine, the stock ECU is actually more tolerant to air gap than MS will be. I want to say from memory, it's supposed to be .039" (1mm). 526hom is a little on the light side, but is in tolerance (+/-10%, or +/-54ohm).

                      hmmm...



                      john@m20guru.com
                      Links:
                      Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                        #12
                        Sucks that the numbers are low, but I think you have a lot of potential in that motor once the tune gets sorted out
                        Simon
                        Current Car:
                        -2017 i3 REx, 21st Century E30
                        -1975 Alfa Romeo Giulia Nuova Super 1300, the never-ending name & project



                        Make R3V Great Again -2020

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                          #13
                          To "jump" from map to map, you would have to be playing with the WOT switch, not just going up/down a hill, the AFM will show load.
                          That is the idea I was missing. As simple as that seems. No worries about those pictures. I've been cruising the Alternative Tuning threads and thought I saw something I understood. I completely get that I'm a noob, which is why I want to hire you to help me get the MS tune straight. I just want to understand enough that I follow some of the what's and whys.

                          Seems like sensors are good, now it's likely down to internals or tuning. Heading over to the shop this afternoon to develop a course of action. There's a remote chance it's not the 2.9L I think I have. I don't want to crack it back open but he said he'd do it if it became necessary.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 2mAn View Post
                            Sucks that the numbers are low, but I think you have a lot of potential in that motor once the tune gets sorted out
                            Appreciate the vote of confidence. We'll get it sorted out eventually.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Id aim for a realistic number around 175-180whp and anything more is a bonus. Might need more cam, but should be a strong setup as-is when properly tuned
                              Simon
                              Current Car:
                              -2017 i3 REx, 21st Century E30
                              -1975 Alfa Romeo Giulia Nuova Super 1300, the never-ending name & project



                              Make R3V Great Again -2020

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