NA is best - 3.1L M20 w/ ITB's

[ForcedFirebird]

You're right, not the thread for this. But, you are wrong that DBW hasn't been done, also Motorsport VVT on MS has been around a few years - but no PNP. Browse the MS forums...

[2mAn]

Can we just take a moment to enjoy that a 12 year member just blessed us with post #11. See you next year for #12 :rofl:

I think everyone at this point has made their point about their own chosen EFI systems, and its obvious neither is planning on moving from their positions. Lets be patient and see what OP delivers and make conclusions from that.

But please OP get biggers injectors first, I think thats something that EVERYONE agrees on

[iXguido]

Hope all is well up there in the great white north. Good to see your progress.

Just as an FYI, shortly before I left IE I got dyno results from a friend down in Australia who has almost the exact same setup (same piston specs, 288 cam, 42mm RHD ITB's.). After tuning he was running 275whp with a healthy curve. Cannot remember what injectors he was running.

Any more info on this motor? Build thread of any kind?

[SkiFree]

Any more info on this motor? Build thread of any kind?

I don't have much more than what I've already said. To keep this thread clean, shoot me a PM with your email and I will see if I can go through my old files.

[Raxe]

Sweet, lots of good information here, interesting to see the different opinions on management.. guess I have some researching to do before I make the switch. This car will not be 24V swapped with anything newer in the long forseeable future as it's always been about the old-style, so preparing for vanos control or DBW is not a concern. With the amount of money in this M20 I'm keeping it haha. <3

The other problem I face is a serious lack of decent tuners or dynos in the area, everything here is diesel trucks and Mitsubishi's. I'd have to take into consideration who would be doing a tune and what they are familiar with or go with something simple and try doing it myself.

In the meantime I'm pretty much out of time to source different injectors for the holidays. I'll toss in the 17's for now since I have them and look for something bigger in the coming months. Poor car will be going back into storage for the next few months anyway as it's still snowing... I may not even get a chance to really road test it until spring. :(

Car is inside and ready to go after Christmas, fluids are drained and hood is off. Final "before pics":



Engine bay hasn't been washed in a couple years.

[mr2peak]

Do I spy an HID ballast? What's your setup?

[Raxe]

Do I spy an HID ballast? What's your setup?

Old school DDM 4500k, they've lasted 7 years but they're coming out soon because they appear green through the yellow filters. Either switching to a 3000k or just going back to a halogen for simplicity sake.

[e30m3s54turbo]

Sub'd for some itbs love.

[econti]

Or you could be the baddest dude and run triple Webers

[mila325]

Or you could be the baddest dude and run triple Webers

Why would her bother running inferior technology..? It's not even any cooler.

[SkiFree]

It's not even any cooler.

I vehemently disagree. It is infinitely cooler. Good thing we all have opinions though.

[lambo]

I love this

[mr2peak]

Started a new thread to compare (and continue) the M20 engine management conversation. Perhaps we can make it a good comparison reference for future use?

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?p=4729782#post4729782

Raxe, awesome build thread. Glad it sparked this conversation!

[AwakenNoMore]

Very curious to see what sort of power this monster makes. Love this build.

[nando]

Andrew mentioned S54 in that post. How can the MS run S54? Nobody is running MS with a fully functional S54 no way. It can't even do Ethrottle. So switch to cable like all MS people think is the solution (because E-throtlte is stupid LOL - I actually install DBW on S52 engines on purpose), without proper air bleed the throttles will never be synced right, and the geometry is not linear mechanically. You MUST bleed air properly with S54 with the idle valve or it NEVER works right. You don't even open the throttles on S54s until you are about 25% pedal position deep. This bleed air from that massive air distribution pipe evens out the syncing issue, plus eliminates the differential pressure so the throttles don't stick closed.

And VANOS, requires two HIGH SIDE outputs PER camshaft with a special PID strategy because motorsport VANOS has no default position. I could write 10 more paragraphs about this.

Haltech can't even run Motorsport Dual VANOS yet if I am not mistaken, so how the hell would DIY MS stuff come even close if they don't even have E-throttle systems? As far as I know, the ONLY system that properly controls Motorsport Dual VANOS right now is the Emtron ECU system. Link, Motec, Life, and Cosworth can too, but they overregulate the solenoids when in the target deadband, and require hardware modifications most of the time to enable them to be driven by low side outputs.

If you are saying people "run" those engines by taking off all of the parts like E-throttle/VANOS, and all the other cool stuff that makes those engines what they are then you are just talking about an engine management system that opens injectors up and turns a coil on. OF COURSE it can "run" it. Maybe switch to a distributor too. That be "dope".

MS (even MS3pro) can't be compared to the flexibility of the Link and Haltech systems. Just download the software and poke through it. Look at all the tables, offsets, compensations, map switching, table blending, and more.

There are a lot of management systems that say they "do" something, but actually can't. There is one brand advertising traction control and all they do is look at the RPM ROC to determine wheel slip. LOL.

That's all well and good, but we're talking about the M20 here - not the S54.

Megasquirt 2 or 3 will run it perfectly well. Better than the stock computer (when tuned correctly, naturally), and it is every bit as reliable (unless a monkey soldered it together - but you can get help with that too). My M20 is going on 10 years running on some form of Megasquirt, almost 80,000 miles, and I never had any problems with the hardware or software that weren't caused by myself. The fact is Megasquirt on the M20 has been done so many times that the support and info is excellent, maybe even better than some of the higher dollar standalones because nobody is going to spend $10k on a motosports computer to run a $500 M20 2.7i build.

Also, the whole point of MS is it is DIY - so yes, if you wanted to do those things the way you are saying, it could be done - there is enough I/O and software ability that somebody who was into building electronics could do whatever they wanted (which again, is the entire point). With something like Haltech it would be literally impossible because it's basically a black box you have no control over.

However, if you're talking the S54 - the stock computer is honestly better than almost all aftermarket ones, so IMO something Haltech, Link, etc. would be a downgrade anyway (especially if there's no real VANOS support). They simply do not support all of the functions the stock computer can, because it would literally be way too difficult to tune from scratch.