Why hate Obama?

[bme30]

Upper Class. Middle Class VS Lower Class

[Morrison]

Around here everyone is so embarrassed by the term "republican" that no one wants to call themselves that anymore. People I've previously known to associate with that party now will say things like, "oh, I'm an independent but conservative." Or, "I'm tea party." The Tea Party is basically what they had to create because the term "republican" has taken on so much shame over the past decade and yet it is identical. Make no mistake about it; there will not be 3 parties on the ballot come November '12. Still the same ole 2.

And why is socialism such a bad word? We like social security, yes? Do you like having your hamburger meat inspected before purchase so you don't get food poisoning all the damn time, ala Food and Drug Administration? I bet your grandparents like Medicare. What about all the corporations receiving subsidies (oil, corn, etc.) or those who received bailout money? Republicans love the latter socialist-eque programs. Nobody here has ever received unemployment? Oh you did, but then you paid it all back after you found work? Fuck that. Like it or not, all of you have benefited from government spending in ways you're not even aware of.

Speaking of spending....war.

Republicans do NOT want you to have personal responsibility. If they did, they would give you freedoms and rights and let you be responsible for how you exercise those rights. Instead, they'd prefer to legislate your morality for you since you can't decide for yourself.

The ObamaCare system probably isn't ideal but neither is what we have now unless you consider 37th place good. This is one area I certainly don't approve of Republicans "maintaining our core value" of sucking.

Taxes? All proposed tax increases by Obama would only affect those making in excess of $250K My apologies to those on here who make more than that.

To be honest, with this being a BMW forum, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the rather social-istic yet well functioning system they have over in Germany. They've basically realized that pure capitalism doesn't work and neither does pure Marxism. A well blended mix seems to be the key, and our formula is a bit off. Obama is trying hard to blend it but is meeting some hard opposition and is trying to appeal to both sides while failing to appeal completely to either side. If he is re-elected I expect to see a a President far less likely to bend over at the urging of the other side.

[NKRoberts]

Obama is trying hard to blend it

What policies has Obama proposed that you feel show he is trying to blend it?

[nando]

germany is sucessful because they can use the euro to essentially devalue their currency and make their exports more competetive. this is a direct cause of the problems with PIIGS. Without the Euro Germany would be screwed because they are an export nation and their currency would be valued far higher. They are basically doing the same thing to PIIGS that China is doing to us.

as far as the business cycle - Uhm.. That existed way before the Fed or fiat currency. The fed was created in an attempt to regulate the business cycle, it didn't create it. that's like saying the Earth created the Sun..

[mrsleeve]

Around here everyone is so embarrassed by the term "republican" that no one wants to call themselves that anymore. People I've previously known to associate with that party now will say things like, "oh, I'm an independent but conservative." Or, "I'm tea party." The Tea Party is basically what they had to create because the term "republican" has taken on so much shame over the past decade and yet it is identical. Make no mistake about it; there will not be 3 parties on the ballot come November '12. Still the same ole 2.

No its now sheik and PC to be a liberal, and you are looked at and assumed to be uneducated mouth breathing red neck if your not a liberal dem, thanks to the social programing of most of our media out lets

And why is socialism such a bad word? We like social security, yes? Do you like having your hamburger meat inspected before purchase so you don't get food poisoning all the damn time, ala Food and Drug Administration? I bet your grandparents like Medicare. What about all the corporations receiving subsidies (oil, corn, etc.) or those who received bailout money? Republicans love the latter socialist-eque programs. Nobody here has ever received unemployment? Oh you did, but then you paid it all back after you found work? Fuck that. Like it or not, all of you have benefited from government spending in ways you're not even aware of.

Its a bad word because it fly's in the face of the very founding of this nation and values that many of us still hold at our core. SSI, yeah our grandparents like it, they have paid into all their lives and as have we. But the kicker with SSI is that for the bulk of the population you were never intended to draw on it. When SSI was put into law the age at which you could draw full benefits was (and still remains) 65. Though average life expectancy in the 30's was 63. The bulk of the people were never supposed to receive any benefit, and it was not intended to be a your only plan for retirement it was to supplement your savings. These same things hold true for the medicare system, and I will not even get into congress moving SSI into the general fund from its own trust in the 70's

FDA, yeah ok I can understand that and I can see where there could be a limited role for the govt to be involved with food safety.

Please show me where Oil is subsidized in this country, Fuck The feds make more on Oil than Big Oil does. Corn yeah thats working well for ethanol production and food prices huh. We are going to use a 1/3 of the corn crop this year to make a shitty expensive fuel for cars thanks to govt intervention and mandates. FDR's solution to low crop prices was to burn all the excess then subsidize the rest.

Unemployment, is PRIVATELY FUNDED and Govt distributed. Every hour you work you pay a tax into the system, Your employer pays a % of his entire payroll for the month into the system. When you get laid off, how much of your benefit has been paid in during your employment is determined. If its not enough your employer gets a bill for the rest, and if you go back to work in 2 month the state keeps the balance to give to others or fund other shit. Just think would you need U/E if you made that extra 10-14k a year??? Its your money in the 1st place the govt just holds it and keeps what you dont get to use.

Speaking of spending....war.

Not getting into this

Republicans do NOT want you to have personal responsibility. If they did, they would give you freedoms and rights and let you be responsible for how you exercise those rights. Instead, they'd prefer to legislate your morality for you since you can't decide for yourself.

one can only assume you are pointing to abortion rights. While I agree with that, they are pandering to their base no different than the libbs to the welfare class, and promising them their more free shit. Religion is not a bad thing, and like it or not its a core belief in this country in some form or another.

The ObamaCare system probably isn't ideal but neither is what we have now unless you consider 37th place good. This is one area I certainly don't approve of Republicans "maintaining our core value" of sucking.

we have several threads about this, I am not going into it here.

]Taxes? All proposed tax increases by Obama would only affect those making in excess of $250K My apologies to those on here who make more than that.

Ever get a pay check from a poor person???? Yeah small business make up 85% of where people work in this country. Many are taxed at personal income tax rates, you increase the burden on them, that will slow the economy even more. and really 250k is not that much money anymore, especially if you are running a your own small business.

To be honest, with this being a BMW forum, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the rather social-istic yet well functioning system they have over in Germany. They've basically realized that pure capitalism doesn't work and neither does pure Marxism. A well blended mix seems to be the key, and our formula is a bit off. Obama is trying hard to blend it but is meeting some hard opposition and is trying to appeal to both sides while failing to appeal completely to either side. If he is re-elected I expect to see a a President far less likely to bend over at the urging of the other side.

Germany keeps its self devalued thanks to using the euro, there by keeping a favorable exchange rate, just like china does.

Right the 0 is on his best behavior to get in again. As far as the capitalism not working. I think the fact that we live in the most prospers country in modern history, we are able to sit here and have this debate a 1000 miles apart on our magic boxes, enjoy a life style that lets us pursue other things than a meager subsistence life style, and that even the most poor among us have more wealth than the 99% of humans that have ever walked the earth says a lot about how good capitalism is. Its not perfect to say the least, but its the best thing there is out there, and its what has lead humanity outta the dark ages, for with out capitalism, we would still be living in a feudal cast system.


Its nice that all you can regurgitate the same 3-4 preprogramed responses that you all seem to stand on.

You

[nando]

all who? :p

[mrsleeve]

^
you know who ;)

[Morrison]

Please show me where Oil is subsidized in this country, Fuck The feds make more on Oil than Big Oil does. Corn yeah thats working well for ethanol production and food prices huh. We are going to use a 1/3 of the corn crop this year to make a shitty expensive fuel for cars thanks to govt intervention and mandates. FDR's solution to low crop prices was to burn all the excess then subsidize the rest.

Proof provided:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-17/politics/senate.oil.subsidies_1_oil-companies-gas-prices-maine-s-olympia-snowe?_s=PM:POLITICS

one can only assume you are pointing to abortion rights. While I agree with that, they are pandering to their base no different than the libbs to the welfare class, and promising them their more free shit. Religion is not a bad thing, and like it or not its a core belief in this country in some form or another.

That is one but not really a big one for me. My views on rights are extremely Libertarian however. I don't support laws that try to legislate morality. I'd be all for the legalization of drugs, prositution, gay rights, ability for banks and car dealers to do business on Sunday, etc.

Ever get a pay check from a poor person???? Yeah small business make up 85% of where people work in this country. Many are taxed at personal income tax rates, you increase the burden on them, that will slow the economy even more. and really 250k is not that much money anymore, especially if you are running a your own small business.

I'm sure in places like California or New York City it may not seem like much. Here in the midwest it's still a pretty substantial bit of change. I know a guy who co-owns a small engineering firm with ~25 employees and he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of income. By the way, I think your number (85%) is refuted by this info:

"According to the Census Bureau and the Small Business Administration, about 60 million Americans worked for small businesses in 2006. This is about 51 percent of the private, nonfarm U.S. workforce. They define small businesses as private firms having fewer than 500 employees.

However, if you add in state, local, and federal government employees (about 20 million) and agricultural employees (about 2.2 million), you end up with small businesses employing about 43 percent of the U.S. workforce."

Its nice that all you can regurgitate the same 3-4 preprogramed responses that you all seem to stand on.

It still trumps the 2 mantra's of the GOP. "No new taxes" and "It's all about the job makers!"

[mrsleeve]

Proof provided:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Good for you you have done nothing but point out the "breaks" that ALL business and corporations along with even lowly individual tax payers like you and me get. They are NOT SUBSIDIES. They are write off's like deprecation on capital equipment (just like we can). They get credits for paying taxes in other countries (like we do) they get a break that all other manufacturing gets to keep jobs here in the states. SO ummm yeah you cant single out 1 industry like that.

XOM posted 10.6b in 1st quarter profits in 2011, OOOOOO so evil right, well they paid 8 Billion in taxes, thats 42% in the same quarter (ONE OIL COMPANY!!!!! 1 quarter!!!!) . While at the same time, XOM is pouring all its profits back into its exploration and planning on investing 35b into that side of the businesses over the next 5 years. Dont you think that they would be better off keeping their write offs so they can keep pouring that money out into the market and providing VERY VERY GOOD PAYING JOBS ??????

in the course of 25 years (1983-2008 IIRC) Big oil remitted 2.2 TRILLION dollars to all levels of govt in the USA. That is 3 times greater than all their combined profits for the same time period. All according the the US waffleswaffleswaffles.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1168.html

So I say again please show me where the Big oil has any kind of subsidies ..................................

Little more time on CNN might have helped you.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/26/news/economy/oil_tax_breaks_obama/index.htm?hpt=T2

That is one but not really a big one for me. My views on rights are extremely Libertarian however. I don't support laws that try to legislate morality. I'd be all for the legalization of drugs, prositution, gay rights, ability for banks and car dealers to do business on Sunday, etc.

Talk to you local city counsels or townships or even county, to let people work on Sunday, or even your state in some cases. It reflects the demographic of where you live. Vote with your feet and leave, or get off you ass and stop bitching about it and change it.

I tend to agree with you about drugs and so on. But you have to remember most of them were banned under the FDR administration NOT a R. (other than weed and amphetamines that was Nixon IIRC)

BTW Gays have all the same rights and anyone else they are not being denied anything

I'm sure in places like California or New York City it may not seem like much. Here in the midwest it's still a pretty substantial bit of change. I know a guy who co-owns a small engineering firm with ~25 employees and he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of income. By the way, I think your number (85%) is refuted by this info:

"According to the Census Bureau and the Small Business Administration, about 60 million Americans worked for small businesses in 2006. This is about 51 percent of the private, nonfarm U.S. workforce. They define small businesses as private firms having fewer than 500 employees.

However, if you add in state, local, and federal government employees (about 20 million) and agricultural employees (about 2.2 million), you end up with small businesses employing about 43 percent of the U.S. workforce."

Many many small business and single proprietors file their taxes as individuals (like I said earlier) their employees are omitted from you link. I think with some research you will find I am closer to right than your link lets on.

Your friend must pay his guys rather well then. But I know his business does, and depending on how they set the company up he may be paying taxes at an individual tax rate on all that money no matter how much he keeps for him self.

It still trumps the 2 mantra's of the GOP. "No new taxes" and "It's all about the job makers!"

I see well nearly all of the most evil, corrupt, freedom grabbing, racist, administrations in US history we all Democrats. Jackson, Wilson, FDR, to name a few off the top of my head.

Right with job creators there would be no jobs to have an we would all be starving. And taxing those evil business dose nothing but drive up the costs to the consumer, business dont pay taxes they are a middle man and collect them and pass them on to the govt no more no less. Consumers YOU and every other individual are the only ones that pay taxes.

[Morrison]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Good for you you have done nothing but point out the "breaks" that ALL business and corporations along with even lowly individual tax payers like you and me get. They are NOT SUBSIDIES. They are write off's like deprecation on capital equipment (just like we can). They get credits for paying taxes in other countries (like we do) they get a break that all other manufacturing gets to keep jobs here in the states. SO ummm yeah you cant single out 1 industry like that.

XOM posted 10.6b in 1st quarter profits in 2011, OOOOOO so evil right, well they paid 8 Billion in taxes, thats 42% in the same quarter (ONE OIL COMPANY!!!!! 1 quarter!!!!) . While at the same time, XOM is pouring all its profits back into its exploration and planning on investing 35b into that side of the businesses over the next 5 years. Dont you think that they would be better off keeping their write offs so they can keep pouring that money out into the market and providing VERY VERY GOOD PAYING JOBS ??????

in the course of 25 years (1983-2008 IIRC) Big oil remitted 2.2 TRILLION dollars to all levels of govt in the USA. That is 3 times greater than all their combined profits for the same time period. All according the the US waffleswaffleswaffles.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1168.html

So I say again please show me where the Big oil has any kind of subsidies ..................................

Little more time on CNN might have helped you.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/26/news...dex.htm?hpt=T2

Did you even read that? The whole crux of it is that those "tax breaks" are only applicable to those in the oil industry. I don't mean to pick on just them though but was just giving an example for argument's sake. Here are some more: http://www.ctj.org/pdf/12corps060111.pdf

Right with job creators there would be no jobs to have an we would all be starving. And taxing those evil business dose nothing but drive up the costs to the consumer, business dont pay taxes they are a middle man and collect them and pass them on to the govt no more no less. Consumers YOU and every other individual are the only ones that pay taxes.

I've heard this before and have debunked this logic before. (Successful)Businesses have a profit margin from which taxes can be extracted. I don't own that profit so its not coming from me. "But they would just raise the price of their good or service and extract money from the consumer to maintain their previous profit margin!" Oh really? Then why, if the current demand would support a higher price point, do they not already have the price maxed out? What I'm getting at is that raising the price would result in a lower volume of sales and therefore no tangible profit increase.

[mrsleeve]

another hopeless case, where logic and the real world have no bearing.

I give up

[Farbin Kaiber]

So the ideas of the Tea Party are the "fringes" yet the closest to a Tea Party presidential candidate gets 2nd by less than 200 votes in the first marker of the GOP Nominee process? Someone is drinking the koolaid.

[Kershaw]

another hopeless case, where logic and the real world have no bearing.

are you talking about 99% of the threads in the p&r forum on r3vlimited?

[mrsleeve]

yup

[Kershaw]

ok, just so we're clear.