Occupy Wall Street

[Fusion]

Shit's going worldwide. Wonder where this'll lead us.
I'm not the protesting type, nor do I have the time, but something obviously needs to change and atleast people are opening their eyes to something other than Jersey Shore and other stupid crap.
Not sure if I should use the word 'change' since Obama has turned that into the synonym of making everything worse.

[mrsleeve]

Stubbornly naiive or willfully ignorant? How many examples do you need of corrupt businesses circumventing the correct and mutally-beneficial methods of capitalism and instead doing things like getting laws changed in their favor, price fixing, buying politicians and judges, etc?

The vast majority of business dont do these things. They are fine with normal competition and making a top product or service. Which is the way its supposed to be. Its the few asshole ones that fuck things up. And they fuck things up big. And when these asshole companies are huge, multinational corps that have a massive impact on the global economy... well here we are. Thats what the OWC folks are on about.

But it takes two to tango. These asshole companies wouldnt be able to get away with this shit if it wasnt for the compliance and assistance from corrupt politicians. They are supposed to be the watchdogs with laws and regulations to make sure the system stays fair. When they are bought, all this goes out the window.

Ultimately the responsibility and burden falls on us. Which it absofuckinglutely should. If we vote for shitty politicians and buy products from shitty companies, then we are to blame.

Yeah that was kinda my point from an earlier post

[Kershaw]

and i guess they are fed up and doing something about it.

[mrsleeve]

But again they are protesting the main symptom not the cause. The cause still plainly falls on the shoulders of GOVT.

[joshh]

Stubbornly naiive or willfully ignorant? How many examples do you need of corrupt businesses circumventing the correct and mutally-beneficial methods of capitalism and instead doing things like getting laws changed in their favor, price fixing, buying politicians and judges, etc?

The vast majority of business dont do these things. They are fine with normal competition and making a top product or service. Which is the way its supposed to be. Its the few asshole ones that fuck things up. And they fuck things up big. And when these asshole companies are huge, multinational corps that have a massive impact on the global economy... well here we are. Thats what the OWC folks are on about.

But it takes two to tango. These asshole companies wouldnt be able to get away with this shit if it wasnt for the compliance and assistance from corrupt politicians. They are supposed to be the watchdogs with laws and regulations to make sure the system stays fair. When they are bought, all this goes out the window.

Ultimately the responsibility and burden falls on us. Which it absofuckinglutely should. If we vote for shitty politicians and buy products from shitty companies, then we are to blame.

What laws would you put in place to prevent this? Specifically with lobbying?

[Kershaw]

But again they are protesting the main symptom not the cause. The cause still plainly falls on the shoulders of GOVT.

ok. i've got an idea.

let's kick out all senators and representatives and start congress completely over. from scratch. tomorrow. and ban any currents from running again. and cut off their benefits for life. all of them. even the good ones. share success share defeat.

that should send a good message.

[mrsleeve]

How about just term limits ?????

[joshh]

ok. i've got an idea.

let's kick out all senators and representatives and start congress completely over. from scratch. tomorrow. and ban any currents from running again. and cut off their benefits for life. all of them. even the good ones. share success share defeat.

that should send a good message.

You're still dealing with humans. And as I've continued to discover throughout my life a very very small percentage of them are truly honest.
What's needed is a better system to keep humans in check from governmental power. Which will never happen because the vast majority of humans are disposed to cheating to make things better for themselves and not their constituents (in the case of politicians). A perfect example of this is the current Socialistic system and current American systems where the ruling class is treated far better than the working class. Because they make the laws. And they make the rules around themselves.
But how do you make rules and laws to control the "evil" and not overly control the honest person?
Pretty much a lose lose depending on how you look at it.

[Victell]

What laws would you put in place to prevent this? Specifically with lobbying?

I saw a summary of legislative changes at another forum that summed up closesly what I think, and it was put better than I can. I do have some changes though

Adjusted for inflation, wages are at an all time low, while corporate profits are at highs. Owners of capital are basically just keeping larger shares of the pie than they did 20 years ago. Three main grievances and solutions:

-The banking sector is corrupt. People are pissed that the repeal of Glass-Steagall has allowed commercial banks to turn back into investment banks, the result of which was the financial meltdown of 2008. They're also pissed because more and more people are learning how the Federal Reserve banking system works, and think its insane that banks can, for example, borrow from the fed at almost no interest, and turn right back around and lend that same money to the treasury at 2%+ interest... basically printing free money, and footing tax payers with the bill.

They suggest: Reintroduction of banking regulations and some monopoly busting. Too big to fail? Too big to exist.

I completely agree with this one. If these companies are get so big and entertwined with the global economy that if they fail they cause massive problems worldwide, I would support legislation basically outlawing them.

-The current corporate system encourages executives to achieve short term profits at the expense of long term success. CEO's slash and burn companies in order to get a quick rise in stock "value", so they can exercise their options and cash out. Once they've "got mine", they jump ship with their golden parachute, leaving a damaged company behind.

They want things such as: Introduction of regulation to the derivatives markets, and perhaps progressively tax short term investments over long ones. Only owned a stock for a minute and 38 seconds? Pay a higher tax on your profits than the guy who held it for a year. Remove the Capital gains tax, and charge a more normal income rate for your tax bracket. Also big support for introducing transaction taxes... small fees attached to each trade to discourage things like HFT manipulation.

Agreed.

Get the money out of Washington. OWS protesters feel that both Republicans and Democrats will claim/say whatever it takes to get elected, and in the end they all pander to Corporations over the people. They do this, of course, because Corporations (and rich people who own them) are the ones who hire lobbyists and fund campaigns.

They suggest: No one really knows yet, its such an encompassing problem.

Politicians campaigns should be 100% funded by public money. No money from lobbies, unions, etc. Done, over. No matter which 'side' you're on, I cant see how anybody would not think this is good idea. Although I am not sure how to determine who gets the bigger public funding for bigger races like senators, reps, and presidential campaigns. Maybe a several step process? Or all candidates need to pass some sort of testing and background check to qualify? Not sure about this detail

The other thing I would do is ban political parties. All of them. Each candidate would have to make his own platform and run on that and his own merits. Stand on your own. It would also cease to allow the lazy among us to just vote for their 'team' every time. Make you look at the actual person running.

Thats all for this morning, going to work now

[Fusion]

I fully agree on the campaign money. It's certainly not impossible.
You'd need
a] transparent campaign accounts, ones that could be pubilically accessable. Some banks over here offer them mainly for nonprofits and charities, basically you log on to the account as "guest" and can look at the income/payments, just not do anything with the money.
b] an initial deposit by the runner with clear background (ie. saved up from his payroll)
c] low income for the position after being elected. For example a payroll matching that of what he/she had before. This could be hard, the point being anyone who wants to be in politics for the dough simply should not be there.

Since the people as a whole are the "employer of the government", it should become easy to fire a politician for doing retarded shit, ie. giving a corporation 2bil for no apparent reason, by means of a referendum, aka Direct Democracy.

The people need to become part of the political system in the sense that they can change things very often, if needed. This should raise their interest in whole "game" because voting in intervals and protesting and bickering in between elections is useless. Want change? Do it NOW, not in two years. Not by yelling around in the streets and acting stupid, but by casting your vote to replace the idiots damaging the people and their country.

[Massimo]

Only owned a stock for a minute and 38 seconds? Pay a higher tax on your profits than the guy who held it for a year.

Someone please enlighten me but what if stock trading was limited to every hour globally? It seems thing get out of control because there is to much information to decipher the problems. If trading was limited to every hour it would be easier to see a problem arising and possibly deal with it in a timely manner which possibly could result in a sensable outcome.

Seems to me that when the GFC happened everything happened so quickly people don't know what to do so they make a lot of bad choices which just makes things worse.

[Dozyproductions]

I can't believe that we all still think less of this guy.

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/

[BraveUlysses]

How about just term limits ?????

Double-edged sword. What's worse, an experienced or inexperienced politician?




(both)

[LBJefferies]

Part of me wants to join the protests as I am against government bailouts and corporate control of government, but at the same time I am not convinced that the protesters aren't just a bunch of socialists. For every 1 sign that says "tax the rich" I want to punch 5 protesters in the face.

[mrsleeve]

Double-edged sword. What's worse, an experienced or inexperienced politician?




(both)

Yes I know but it would curb the corruption a bit I would think