Obama supports new bid to ban assault weapons.

[mrsleeve]

Rat: The old saying................... If we lose the 2ed so go the rest.

Mr. Sleeve, Damn. I feel sorry for anyone in the room with you this morning. Maybe if you could have a rational discussion without all the profanity and name calling you might have your opinion taken seriously.

I can tell you that you can't own a rocket launcher. Why aren't you guys crying about that?

Name calling, I have not really gotten into that, other than asking if the dude is 14 pointing out the fact that hes is factual and historically ignorant. How is that name calling??

Just making a point stand out. we dont have a big profanity clause here and I do have a 1st amendment rights too you know.

You dont think I am being rational???? thats on you I guess

Rocket Launcher, well considering non were put out into the civilian market, as a surplus item with a pre 1986 construction date none are available for private transfer via NFA rules, so its pointless to talk about that. But under the 2a and the Dick Act of 1903 (which is still the law) yeah if we had the cash why not. We can own 105mm recoiless
anti tank rifle, or Full auto Machine guns, and all kinds of other military hardware but that falls under the NFA rules and might as well be banned for all intents and purposes in this thread.

Hey ratbastage, what about Canada? They restrict guns. Why haven't they been invaded?

Because AMERICA lives a tid bit south of them and would not tolerate hostile forces along and undefended 3000 mile boarder. Why we put up with mexico is a topic for a different thread

The right to vote is what I'm referring to. It was changed when we realized it was wrong.

Hence the Living document thing, it can be amended when necessary, that why there is a procedure for that, not that we get to interpret it with modern rose tinted glasses. Like I said its working just fine. and IIRC under the original Constitution women could vote if the owned property

The constitution protects your rights as much as mine, if you dont want to use some of them thats just fine, buts not your place or anyone elses to tell others they cant use the ones you dont like.

[Ether-D]

Maybe I'll start pointing out grammar and spelling...

[mrsleeve]

Its well known I dont spell well, its just something I dont do well and have to rely on my spell check plug in that sometimes does not behave or catch my dyslexic ass. Trust me your not going to hurt my feelings picking on my spelling lack of comma use on a message board.

[Ratbastage]

Hey ratbastage, what about Canada? They restrict guns. Why haven't they been invaded?

There is still a large number of weapons in the hands of the general population and has been for several generations.

Also, if you are referring to the registration list, that was killed off as well.

We restrict guns as well. Such as select fire and FA stuff, silencers and other NFA items. There is a whole host of things that are illegal to own or require special permitting and stamps.


Plus its Canada, who wants to be cold, drink sorry beer and listen to Eh all the time?

Here is a serious question.

If gun control in general works then why is it places in the US with the strictest laws have the highest per capita gun crime rates?

Ergo, Chicago and DC vs St Louis and Houston.

I can tell you quite simply, criminals do not care about the law. Might be why they are criminals. Making something illegal to possess that is in common use and ownership does nothing but make criminals out of a large portion of the population.

Another little fact. As concealed carry came into effect the states implementing showed a sharper drop in violent crime rates. Understand, those rates had been falling somewhat since the 70's but, the rate of drop showed a increase in the states that implemented concealed carry.

Might it actually be that there is some truth to the statement, a armed society is a polite society?

As a side note.

There are 3 common denominators to the shooters starting with Columbine.

1) gun free zones (implemented in 96)
2) zoloft and similar types of meds
3) affiliation with the democratic party either by immediate family or individual.

[BraveUlysses]

You do understand why the US has not been attacked by invasion in modern times don't you? IIRC it was Hirohito who said something to the effect of "A rifle behind every blade of grass".

It's been 70+ years since a US territory was attacked by a foreign government, correct.

That doesn't mean that guns are preventing further attacks--no government will attack the home of the most well trained and funded army in the history of this planet--it has nothing to do with civilians owning rifles or pistols.

Same with the government. The elected officials are intended to be public servants and should FEAR the constituency. Not the other way around. A good portion of the basis for the fear is the simple fact that, as a population, we are armed and have them outnumbered.

More non answers to my question. Go back and re-read it.

------------

On a side note it's always funny to watch sleeve lose his shit on here and return to making incoherent, terrible arguments for all of his weird viewpoints.

[Ratbastage]

I



More non answers to my question. Go back and re-read it.

------------

On a side note it's always funny to watch sleeve lose his shit on here and return to making incoherent, terrible arguments for all of his weird viewpoints.

Ok, lets see if I can state this in terms you might get that do not involve any actual thinking to digest.

Simply put, he general consensus is the Second was put into place for 2 reasons.

1) To offer the citizenry the ability to protect themselves from tyrants, domestic or foreign

2) To offer the citizenry the opportunity to defend themselves from those who would offer them personal harm or injury.

To continue to simplify. One is protection from a government run amok. The other is protection from the criminal element.

Both I end to agree with.

I understand compelling interest and all that for altering the Bill Of Rights. However, the basic, fundamental list of the original draft should stay untouched IMO. It is the foundation of our republic.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

A simple copy and paste if you have not read the first 10 amendments recently.

[mrsleeve]

How are they incoherent and terrible. everything I have said is factual and prudent to the topic at hand. because you have a piss poor understanding of history and the founding principals of this nation does not make my position any less valid, or factually insignificant.

and dont give me some response about our history you got out of the People History of the US by Zinn.

[sumoashe]

I am willing to bet if you were to be arrested for speaking your opinion, or the cops raid your house with out a warrant or with out cause, you would be banging on the drum of the 1st amendment and the 4th and your RIGHTS to them.

Actually I have been arrested for speaking my opinion, 4 times and counting. But then again I actually take to the streets for protests versus being a forum tuff guy.

Or the 2 million or Cambodians wiped out by Mr Pot in the killing fields, if some of the jews had not been law abiding citizens and turned over all their arms in the name of child safety. Maybe fewer would have been subjected to genocide, and the warsaw ghetto would not have its reputation.

For starters the cambodians werent all cambodians. And the ones he was mass killing were unarmed to begin with. They were the teachers, politicians, almost all city dwelling people. The largest group were of a racial stereotype he found unpleasant. Second, you need to really watch you mouth when you start throwing things like this out. My grandmother was sent to Auschwitz, and was one of the lucky ones to survive. So until youve had to sit and watch the tears and pain in a loved ones eyes as they tell you first hand the horrors they witnessed and what they went threw you havent earned the right to use it for your own ego boosting rants.

Its people like you have no clue what you have been bestowed by just being born here in the states, what you take for granted and will so willingly give up because you dont fully comprehend the consequences of those actions.

I know exactly what I've been gifted here. My family survived your "consequences". Sitting and hiding behind a gun doesnt make you safe. It wont keep the gov from coming in and taking your shit and doing what they want. It also wont preserve your freedom. If they want, theyll get it. You wanna keep that from happening, then use the real rights you have. The first amendment has more power than the second will ever hold. But its easier to hide behind a gun then to stand on a podium, at least for you.

Our fundamental rights are not shaped they are not gifts of the govt or conditional they are our natural rights. They are inalienable and self defense of which the 2a derives its basis is one of those basic human rights.

Our rights are absolutely shaped, thats why everything on the constitution was voted on, taking 3 years for all states to finally ratify it. Which included multiple changes, and rights being left off. So don't give me the whole bs of we have to take it exactly as it is. And there not natural rights, it was a natural right to own slaves during the time period. Pretty sure thats not natural. There rights that they "thought" everyone should have.

If you need guns to protect against the gov then shits already to late. Again I'm not for banning all guns. This kinda stuff may fly when you and your teaparty nra buddies are high fiveing each other. But out in the real world you simply come across as ignorant and unwilling to back anything with something other than more rhetoric. In 15+ pages youve done nothing but spit rhetoric, which gets us nowhere. And thats the point, change cannot take place until rhetoric dies and comprimise is reached. And comprimise can only come when actual conversation occurs, which rhetoric is not. The gov already owns you, for as much as you cry to be against them youve bought into exactly what they want. Fearmongering.

[Ratbastage]

If you need guns to protect against the gov then shits already to late. Again I'm not for banning all guns. This kinda stuff may fly when you and your teaparty nra buddies are high fiveing each other. But out in the real world you simply come across as ignorant and unwilling to back anything with something other than more rhetoric. In 15+ pages youve done nothing but spit rhetoric, which gets us nowhere. And thats the point, change cannot take place until rhetoric dies and comprimise is reached. And comprimise can only come when actual conversation occurs, which rhetoric is not. The gov already owns you, for as much as you cry to be against them youve bought into exactly what they want. Fearmongering.

No bullshit. Explain exactly why I should compromise my rights as a American citizen?

[BraveUlysses]

snip

I don't need you to post the BoR, I'm familiar enough.

I asked you a simple question in response to your statement.

Once our only form of resistance is eliminated, then the gloves will come off.

If you truly think that gun ownership is the one last thing holding off the government from doing...what exactly?

[Ratbastage]

I don't need you to post the BoR, I'm familiar enough.

I asked you a simple question in response to your statement.

Which I answered.

[BraveUlysses]

Which I answered.

"Government run amok" and your aforementioned example of being arrested for youtube video posts. These are what you worry about?

[Dozyproductions]

It's been 70+ years since a US territory was attacked by a foreign government, correct.

have your already forgotten that Saddam was linked to the 9/11 attacks? ;)

[mrsleeve]

Actually I have been arrested for speaking my opinion, 4 times and counting. But then again I actually take to the streets for protests versus being a forum tuff guy.

So your an Ocupy kid then??? this explains a lot. Something tells me you were not being peaceful, and thats what had gotten you arrested and not your opinion. You should be really proud of your self

For starters the cambodians werent all cambodians. And the ones he was mass killing were unarmed to begin with. They were the teachers, politicians, almost all city dwelling people. The largest group were of a racial stereotype he found unpleasant. Second, you need to really watch you mouth when you start throwing things like this out. My grandmother was sent to Auschwitz, and was one of the lucky ones to survive. So until youve had to sit and watch the tears and pain in a loved ones eyes as they tell you first hand the horrors they witnessed and what they went threw you havent earned the right to use it for your own ego boosting rants.

Like I said unarmed unable to defend them selves. Cambodian or not, the people had no way to stand against mr Pot now did they...... When only the govt has arms well like I said it ends badly.

I am happy for your Gma, that she did not suffer the fate of so many of her countrymen. I am even more saddened that she had to endure those horrors for her and those that are like her they have my deepest sympathies.

Its history, that proves my point, I am sorry that it strikes a chord with you on a personal note, but I dont need earn a right to cite historical events do I???

I know exactly what I've been gifted here. My family survived your "consequences". Sitting and hiding behind a gun doesnt make you safe. It wont keep the gov from coming in and taking your shit and doing what they want. It also wont preserve your freedom. If they want, theyll get it. You wanna keep that from happening, then use the real rights you have. The first amendment has more power than the second will ever hold. But its easier to hide behind a gun then to stand on a podium, at least for you.

The Pen is mightier than the sword MOST DEFIANTLY, hey see we can agree.

WTF do you think I am trying to do here with you and those of you that dont understand basic US history. Like I said our arms are 100 time more powerful just being out here in our hands than trying to pick them up and using them in anger, unless left with absolutely no recourse for peaceful action and shit has already been going on.

I am not hiding behind a firearm. I will not hesitate defend myself or family. I think you have mistaken me for someone that is advocating and 2ed US revolution, nothing could be further from the truth. The feds are not going to try and take shit, they are going to try and get us all to turn them in and neuter them with stupid arbitrary things like a high capacity mag ban.

Our rights are absolutely shaped, thats why everything on the constitution was voted on, taking 3 years for all states to finally ratify it. Which included multiple changes, and rights being left off. So don't give me the whole bs of we have to take it exactly as it is. And there not natural rights, it was a natural right to own slaves during the time period. Pretty sure thats not natural. There rights that they "thought" everyone should have.

Ummm really, our Constitution was based off the ideas of natural law, most things were debated hotly mostly for the correct wording. The 2A was not one of those. Yes it took 3 years because the south was not a fan because slavery was not a protected covenant. many of the founders wanted and outright abolition of slavery , and to let the south do its own thing, but they all knew the new nation could not make it, divided and the north needed the economic power the south brought to the table. All in all they came up with a great document for with out out we would be like France.

Really so the bill of rights is not a document laid out in defense and protection of natural rights. Huh when did that change.

the Constitution is to this day is not supposed to be amended easily

f you need guns to protect against the gov then shits already to late. Again I'm not for banning all guns. This kinda stuff may fly when you and your teaparty nra buddies are high fiveing each other. But out in the real world you simply come across as ignorant and unwilling to back anything with something other than more rhetoric. In 15+ pages youve done nothing but spit rhetoric, which gets us nowhere. And thats the point, change cannot take place until rhetoric dies and comprimise is reached. And comprimise can only come when actual conversation occurs, which rhetoric is not. The gov already owns you, for as much as you cry to be against them youve bought into exactly what they want. Fearmongering.

Ahhhh Yes compromise and I dont like what you say = Rhetoric what are you churning out about need and not for hunting and lair if you have used a an AR to hunt with??? Yeah kinda rhetoricy to me . At least my arguments are based in the proper context of the highest law of the land.

Compromise, we have done that NFA 1934, GCA 1968, FOPA 1986, Being form IL you prolly dont know that all those all but out law Assault weapons and other arms that the Dick act and the 2a are suppose to allow, I say that since IL out right Bars NFA items in private hands. We had the AWB in 94, we have plenty of compromises on the books and compromises that were utter failures that did nothing to prevent crime. And did nothing to address the actual issues at hand.


You want to have conversation about how to fix this, lets do that, but blaming and ban the sale and trade of inanimate objects is not the way to do it, yet that still what you advocate for because its how you feel, rather than cold hard fact. You cant make an argument based on cold hard fact, because those facts dont support your arguments


Use your ocupy skills to get the constitution amended and changed to reflect what you want to see happen.

[sumoashe]

Ratbastage, I'm not asking you to compromise your rights. I'm asking to compromise on a specific issue. Gun Control. Not banning all guns, not abolishing the 2a. But compromising on what type of guns should be allowed, amounts of ammo that should be allowed in a single magazine. As stated, these are things that should of been taken care of 50+ years ago. If they had, this discussion and ones like it would never be needed. But unfortunately people see the word compromise and figure that means losing, and generally the discussion dies there because logic and rational get thrown out the window and replaced with rhetoric. Just look at our congress and senate.

Why is it that instead of simply being able to have a discussion its nothing but rhetoric? Why is it that when asked why you need a ar with a 30 round mag the only answer is "cause I can"? Why not just admit you got it cause you think its cool, your buddy has one, or simply you have some insecurity issues, or maybe just a small dick. It doesnt matter. Theres no legit reason to need one. If hunters and shooters made it all these years with bolt or lever action rifles and still got the job done why cant you? You still get your guns? Hell we went to vietnam with m1's, won ww2 with em. But you need more to protect yourself? Where's the logic in that.

Were not talking tools, cars, or whatever so dont compare them. We are talking specific guns, magazine sizes, and the control of how these and all guns are moved threw out the system. Which obviously has failed because people are still shooting places up, or using illegal guns in other crime. All guns start out legal, its only our own failing that lets end up in the hands of someone who should have them. And instead of compromising in order to get intelligent and concise gun control laws to help prevent all this from happening you simply hide behind rhetoric and nothing gets done. And it all just keeps happening over and over again.

Like I asked before. How many innocent lives are your guns worth? Because until people like you are ready to compromise (not give up, not lose) and do what is best for everyone and not just yourself this shit is gonna keep happening. And the worst part is this is going to start happening more and more frequently as our nation continues to spiral downward.