Mass Shooting - Umpqua Community College

[mrsleeve]

this recent bump is cute. You buy a gun on line, it has to be shipped form the sellers FFL to your FFL where you will fill out a 4473 instant check form and it will be processed. Last I knew being on terror watch list/no fly list, triggers a red flag/ hold on the transaction for further human/manual review.

That bill would have been redundant and unnecessary under current law.

[Massimo]

this recent bump is cute. You buy a gun on line, it has to be shipped form and FFL to your FFL where you will fill out a 4473 instant check form and it will be processed. Last I knew being on terror watch list/no fly list, triggers a red flag/ hold on the transaction for further human/manual review.

That bill would have been redundant and unnecessary under current law.

what dose this form look like how easy is it to put fake details in etc etc. Do these forms get missed is there potential for the forms to get missed.

Personally I think all gun transactions should go through a dealer who can sort it out with professionalism and guarantee the new owner is allowed to have said gun. Yeh its a little bit more of a hassle but a worthy hassle.

[marshallnoise]

Emotions suck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[mrsleeve]

what dose this form look like how easy is it to put fake details in etc etc. Do these forms get missed is there potential for the forms to get missed.

Personally I think all gun transactions should go through a dealer who can sort it out with professionalism and guarantee the new owner is allowed to have said gun. Yeh its a little bit more of a hassle but a worthy hassle.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States.

This applies to your taxes, applying for entitlements, befits, job applications instant back ground check forms for firearms purchases etc... etc... generaly these are felonies when associated with unlawful acquisitions of weapons


Your argument that "well someone can just lie" brings me to this nearly 300 hundred year old quote on this very same topic

From Chapter 38 of On Crimes and Punishment by Italian Cesare Beccaria 1764, then quoted by American Thomas Jefferson in "Common Place Book"

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.

Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty... and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer?

Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree.

If you are having trouble getting the gist of this let me know and I will break it down for you. (again)

Lastly its the Private person to person transactions that make the entire Instant background check system even legal in the US thanks to the Pesky Document know as the Constitution... As soon as the private party face to face transaction is banned the instant check system falls apart and becomes UNCONSTITUTIONAL... Pesky laws and enumerated rights recognized by the founding documents of this nation dont go away with your or anyone else's "Feelings and opinions"

[marshallnoise]

Wonderful quote! I am afraid it will be lost on many.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[BraveUlysses]

this recent bump is cute. You buy a gun on line, it has to be shipped form the sellers FFL to your FFL where you will fill out a 4473 instant check form and it will be processed. Last I knew being on terror watch list/no fly list, triggers a red flag/ hold on the transaction for further human/manual review.

That bill would have been redundant and unnecessary under current law.

I'm sure this is not the case, because that is the exact thing that Feinstein is arguing, that if you are on the no-watch list you shouldnt be able to buy guns. She's proposing it because right now there is no restriction to purchase firearms for those on the list.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-terrorist-watch-list-20151207-story.html

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2013/04/24/178668578/people-on-terror-watch-list-not-blocked-from-buying-guns

[nando]

yeah, we wouldn't want to infringe on terrorists 2A rights, but god forbid we allow anyone who isn't a white Christian into the country!

[agent]

..if you are an upstanding perfect ideal citizen will it really ruin your life having to fill out some forms, or rather, wait an extra 10 mins to get your firearm while they run the check online?

No, because that's the current process for retail purchases.

[mrsleeve]

I'm sure this is not the case, because that is the exact thing that Feinstein is arguing, that if you are on the no-watch list you shouldnt be able to buy guns. She's proposing it because right now there is no restriction to purchase firearms for those on the list.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-terrorist-watch-list-20151207-story.html

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpo...om-buying-guns

Fienstine is also an idiot, and dose not actually know the 1st thing about firearms or what the laws on the books actually do now. I did not say BLOCKED I said tosses a red flag that requires more in depth review of the transaction.

Nice quoting from the Opinion pages now.

[BraveUlysses]

Fienstine is also an idiot, and dose not actually know the 1st thing about firearms or what the laws on the books actually do now. I did not say BLOCKED I said tosses a red flag that requires more in depth review of the transaction.

Nice quoting from the Opinion pages now.

Of course she's stupid, but that's not the point.

It doesn't require an "in depth review" if you look at the statistics:

Under current laws, if a background check reveals that your name is on the national terrorism watch list, you're still free to walk out of a gun dealership with a firearm in your hands — as long as you don't have a criminal or mental health record.

Data from the Government Accountability Office show that between 2004 and 2010, people on terrorism watch lists tried to buy guns and explosives more than 1,400 times. They succeeded in more than 90 percent of those cases, or 1,321 times.

I'm opposed to secret government lists (that you cannot get yourself removed from) and denying people's rights, so I don't think these new laws are necessary.



FYI citing sources isn't the same as quoting. themoreyouknow.jpg

[Wschnitz]

No, because that's the current process for retail purchases.

I guess I made it sound like I meant the current process. AFAIK the proposed laws are asking for a few more checks to be implemented, like mental health.

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that opponents to more checks say that you can "Accidentally" show up on a Terrorist list? Like can we fix that while we are at it?

I'm stuck in between on this issue. I personally barely use my firearms because I'm in college and don't hunt anymore and don't have the time to go to the range. But I'm down with people owning them. I just don't get the massive opposition to studies on gun ownership and mental health, gun violence, added checks before purchasing a tool that was invented to kill people and animals.

I just think there are too many people who are dicks about the whole situation.

Also I'm waiting for the day Marshall adds something interesting to the conversation instead of rhetoric and short sentence back up reply's.

[BraveUlysses]

^don't hold your breath

[cale]

How the fuck do you even sleep at night arguing any of that?

What specifically are you talking about, or do you just blanketly disregard anything someone says when they make a comment you disagree with? If you wish to have a discussion, address the points made and we'll go from there.

People are dying something in the range of 30,000 a year in the USA from guns, and it is to hard for you to take some fucken training, get of you high horse and look at the bigger picture

Not in my country they're not, and I did go through training.

Make no mistake a gun is designed to kill first and for most, from those guns sporting guns have been made, but at the end of the day regardless of whether it is a sporting gun or a gun designed for killing, they can all kill a person at a distance and do it with effectiveness.

Did I ever claim they were meant to provide hugs? I said it's a tool for projecting a bullet, more often than not for killing something to eat. This is how they're used in most civilized countries. America's love for using them for other purposes doesn't change the principle behind their design and intended use.

How can any of you argue that nothing should be done.

Again, where did I claim this? Fabricating an opponent to argue against must be fun, makes it easier to push your own opinions isn't it?

You all keep going on about education blah blah blah. What education is needed to stop mentally ill people from using a gun in a mass shooting. I am pretty sure they are fully aware of what I gun can do. Yeh education might stop accidental shootings but it is not going to do shit for mass shootings.

Is this the "fucken training" from "and it is to hard for you to take some fucken training"?

You need to make it harder to obtain guns in the USA. Its pretty fucken simple, it dose not take a genius to figure that out. How can you argue that? and why do you argue that? People are dying and all you are worried about is dam I am going to have to go to a training course, or I am going to have to wait a few months for that new gun. Who gives the shit, a person is dying because you want to be childish and demand you get what you want now.

I didn't argue it, I argued that arbitrary checks on indviduals who may purchase a new gun on a monthly basis is asinine. A look to my country and you'll see legally obtained guns are more often than not, not the choice for someone who's looking to commit a crime. Adding legislation to limit sales affects those willing to abide by the law, does little to stop criminals apart from a hope for some trickle down impact.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND PEOPLE ARE DYING..... It is not a laughing matter...

Not until you used caps lock I didn't. Your frustration really makes the matter much more clear.

Grow the fuck up. I am sick and tired of seeing this shit in the news every other day and I done even live in the USA. Same with every other nation.

I'm grown and capable of having a discussion without fuck and a misspelled word every sentence. Perhaps if you want to be taken seriously, you should act like an adult?

You and I know it is coming, gun reform is the inevitable. Something will give in and it will happen mark my words. How about you and everyone else do something and be proud that you help USA stop the gun violence.

It may, however I doubt it. How many times has someone in power on a national level stood up and demanded change, only to have the flavor of the week shift a few days later? You guys want to feel bad, but you don't want to actually change.

On and this maybe you should all read it, then maybe you will understand why gun control works. But then again somehow you are going to pull apart a university study and claim it will not work in the USA.

A university study isn't required, however a link to a US national website will show a similar drop in murder rates. Crime has been dropping steadily in many first world countries, attributing it to gun bans is a stab in the dark to say the least.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls

[marshallnoise]

I guess I made it sound like I meant the current process. AFAIK the proposed laws are asking for a few more checks to be implemented, like mental health.

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that opponents to more checks say that you can "Accidentally" show up on a Terrorist list? Like can we fix that while we are at it?

I'm stuck in between on this issue. I personally barely use my firearms because I'm in college and don't hunt anymore and don't have the time to go to the range. But I'm down with people owning them. I just don't get the massive opposition to studies on gun ownership and mental health, gun violence, added checks before purchasing a tool that was invented to kill people and animals.

I just think there are too many people who are dicks about the whole situation.

Also I'm waiting for the day Marshall adds something interesting to the conversation instead of rhetoric and short sentence back up reply's.

I like reading stuff and really don't have time to engage every thread. But, emotions do suck. They cloud judgement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[varg]

Good lord, it's amazing that some of you still think making it harder to buy a gun legally will keep them out of the hands of people who care so little about the law that they are willing to kill innocent people.