Let’s talk about Antifa.

[bmwman91]

violence as political speech

The vast majority of the citizenry have no tolerance for this since western civilization has, in general, decided that violence is an absolute last-resort. I make a full acknowledgement that there are exceptions to this, but it is far from the norm. At some point, Antifa will overstep its bounds in spectacular fashion and the hard boot of the state will come down swiftly at the demand of nearly everyone. Don't interpret this as me wanting or happily-anticipating this, because I don't; it is merely what I see as the most likely endpoint. In absolute terms, I see Antifa as being about as much of a "real problem" as their right-wing counterparts: not a real problem in the grand scheme of things.

Warning: Caffeine-induced predictions of the future follow:
You have explained how Antifa is a non-organization, but the public is unaware of this and the media very much paints it as one. I think that the media does this largely on purpose because the deep state needs a way to quickly and decisively dismantle Antifa the second that its usefulness expires.

This is exactly why making an organization like Antifa can only end in tears for everyone involved. Maybe it is simply a label for a set of political beliefs or views about how society should be. But, it is a label, it has logos and it has people who claim to be a part of "it" whatever "it" is in organizational terms. Given how tribal human being still are and how easily nearly anything can be a "group", this means that Antifa members are painting their own backs with a big target.

My prediction is that when a Democrat or non-Trump Republican is elected president (I put odds of this in 2020 at <25%), the demise of Antifa will follow swiftly. The only reason that it does not happen now is because the public is still in a mixed state of bewilderment and media-stoked outrage at Trump's presidency. The media paints Antifa in a positive light since it fits the narrative of "resistance". The second that another loyal globalist gets into the oval office, the deep state will go to work to crush any and all elements of "the resistance". If a Democrat wins, its destruction will follow most swiftly because I don't see Antifa declaring that "Nazis, fascism and white supremacy" all disappeared into thin air as soon as the last ballot was counted and going home. This is not to say that Antifa sees Democrats as any less of a problem than Republicans, but the deep state and its media/propaganda organs will not tolerate Antifa protesting one of its own. As far as the public is concerned, Antifa is basically "anti-Republican/Trump" and they will have zero tolerance for disobedience under a Democrat since the media has convinced everyone that electing one is a major step towards all things good.

Far larger and better-organized groups fighting for "social justice" have been destroyed by the deep state. In the eyes of the deep state, Antifa is a "useful idiot" that will be dispatched the second the narrative shifts. Personally, I recommend shedding the label.

[decay]

If a few Marines have to die to prevent the cultural appropriation of the high and tight, how could you object?

yeah, let's make this about the haircut rather than discussing what gave rise to violence as political speech in the first place

idiot

[frankenbeemer]

I have no doubt Marines know how to throw down. But when you're blindsided 6 against 1, that's not exactly a fair fight.

Hell 1 person can put on the concrete when the come from out of nowhere and sucker punch or hit with you something.

There are people that have literally died from that. Sucker punch knocks them out, head smashes concrete, they never wake up.

If a few Marines have to die to prevent the cultural appropriation of the high and tight, how could you object?

[z31maniac]

I have no doubt Marines know how to throw down. But when you're blindsided 6 against 1, that's not exactly a fair fight.

Hell 1 person can put on the concrete when the come from out of nowhere and sucker punch or hit with you something.

There are people that have literally died from that. Sucker punch knocks them out, head smashes concrete, they never wake up.

[decay]

most of the marines i worked with knew how to fight, they must have been fucking POGs.

#trollanswer

this happened to me too, before i started this thread. i was assaulted at civic center bart station here in san francisco because i was coming home from a gig dressed up all gothy and someone interpreted that as "nazi", called me that, and hit me. i guess he wasn't expecting a hit back, because he didn't even try to dodge, just let me connect with his temple, he went down, and i hopped on the train he'd just got off of and some good samaritan passenger pulled napkins out of her purse and helped me stop the nosebleed.

that's when i stopped wearing the high-and-tight haircut, and i'm bitter that white supremacists stole that haircut- i earned it, they didn't.

#seriousanswer

[frankenbeemer]

Here's the two that were charged.



Suspects Thomas Massey (left) and Tom Keenan (right) in their Philadelphia Police Department mugshots.

[z31maniac]

12 against 2, mace, calling a hispanic a white supremacist.

Brave and intelligent stuff.

[cale]

They'll be out with slaps on the wrist to get back to their crime fighting in no time. Using their white privilege to fight white privilege.

[frankenbeemer]

Meanwhile, in Philadelphia:

Marines Testify About the “Antifa Mob” They Say Attacked Them in Philly

Nearly one month after we told you that two U.S. Marines Corps reservists said they were attacked in Old City on November 17th near the controversial “We the People” rally, the two suspects and their accusers appeared in a Philadelphia courtroom on Thursday morning.

The Marines, Alejandro Godinez and Luis Torres, both testified in uniform about the incident, while three Marine officers, including their commanding officer, stood in the gallery. The suspects, Thomas Massey and Tom Keenan, who have been linked to antifa on websites and social media, sat together with their individual lawyers and did not speak.

The Marines, who are not from the Philadelphia area, said that they had traveled to the city with other members of their helicopter unit, headquartered at Fort Dix, to attend a Marine event that night at a local hotel ballroom. They said that they had no knowledge of the nearby rally, which drew members of the alt-right as well as a large number of counter-protestors, Keenan and Massey reportedly among them.

According to the Marines’ testimony, they were touring historical landmarks near Front and Chestnut streets when suspect Thomas Keenan approached them. Godinez testified that Keenan asked them “Are you proud?,” to which Godinez remembers responding “We are Marines.” Torres said that he remembers Keenan asking “Are you Proud Boys?,” an allusion to one of the alt-right groups behind the rally, and one that Torres said he didn’t understand. “I didn’t know what Proud Boys meant,” he said.

Whatever Keenan said, both Marines testified that Keenan, Massey, and approximately ten other people — men and women, some masked and some unmasked — then began attacking them with mace, punches, and kicks, and calling them “nazis” and “white supremacists.”

On the stand, Godinez said that he was “bewildered” by being called a white supremacist and immediately cried out, “I’m Mexican!” After that, as the attack continued, both men said that members of the group, including Keenan, repeatedly used ethnic slurs, including “spic” and “wetback,” against the Marines. (There was no testimony that Massey used any such language).

Godinez testified that he was maced at least six times, hit in the head, and kicked in the ribs, and he said that while he was being “stomped,” members of the group, which the judge and the district attorney’s office have both referred to as a “mob,” chanted “fuck him up” over and over again.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2018/12/13/marines-assaulted-philadelphia-keenan-massey-antifa/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

[E30 Wagen]

Forgot to post this:

[E30 Wagen]

I'm interested in your response to the rest of that paragraph and how you continue to justify the actions of antifa and your involvement with them despite nearly being attacked.

no it isn't. *you* can be offended if you choose to. two members of the PD in question are up on charges for child sex trafficking, so i'll call them pigs if i feel like it.

Am I supposed to be shocked that there are bad cops? Go ahead and call people like that pigs but how about having some respect for the good ones. Really, if police officers themselves are prosecuted for criminal behavior then that only reinforces the integrity of our law enforcement and undermines your conspiracy that our gov't is transforming into a fascist state.

also, your state contains the murder capital of the country so you probably shouldn't be calling anywhere else a shithole until you get that mess fixed.

So, is that mess fixed with more law enforcement or less? What do you think is necessary to maintain peace in a country? Are we in the US and Europe just naturally more chill but have a police force just for the hell of it? What is an anarchist's solution to fighting crime?

[cale]

no it isn't, because you specifically are making the claim that i'm somehow afraid of violence.

No, I'm not and I've made no comment that suggests this. I've said you chose to fight words that scare you vs fighting violence, implying you decide targets poorly. There's nothing in there about being scared to use violence yourself.

they have posted in the thread today, so i suggest you go... read? i feel like your brain would be of more value if it took more input and made less output.

I'm actually trying to get some context on who you were referring to specifically but sure, speak in broad terms so you don't actually have to address individuals, painting everyone with the same brush. You're the only one here who actually belongs to an identifiable group.

I feel like you're only a few posts away from calling out others for the insults once again...

[decay]

If you're going to get in an officer's face, disobey his orders, and shout "Fuck you" like some insolent teenager then you deserve to be clocked.

i was obeying his orders to move. apparently just not fast enough, because i was concerned about not knocking over and trampling the people behind me. that's what earned me a hit.

And calling police officers pigs is an insult to our entire country. Consider why millions of people are desperate to flee their countries and come here. It's because their countries are crime-ridden shit holes. And why is our country so safe in comparison? I'll let you puzzle that out.

no it isn't. *you* can be offended if you choose to. two members of the PD in question are up on charges for child sex trafficking, so i'll call them pigs if i feel like it.

also, your state contains the murder capital of the country so you probably shouldn't be calling anywhere else a shithole until you get that mess fixed.

[E30 Wagen]

this almost happened to me.

at a protest in oakland for a black girl who'd been murdered by a white supremacist at a public transit station, the proud boys showed up and got swarmed on. not just by antifa, but pretty much everyone present for the event.

in the rush to confront them, someone pulled my flashlight/stun device out of my pocket- i turned around to see who it was and "hello, black panthers". six of them, all bigger than me (i'm 6'3"), looking pissed off.

i won't pretend that wasn't an "oh fuck might die" moment.

i pointed at my three-arrows shirt (see avatar) and shouted "friendly!" twice. they got it, gave me back my flashlight, bro-hugs were exchanged, and we moved towards the front.

yeah, i get it, it is unfortunate that people are so pissed off that civil and political discourse is devolving into street violence, and for your own safety, if you're going to protest, you have to make *absolutely fucking clear* what your position is- but my anecdote for that day is:

the only person who hit me was a pig.

See, the feeling you had when those guys were staring you down is similar to how the American public feels about antifa. It's the "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem" mob mentality which is so dangerous. It opens the door to anybody looking for a fight, and paints a target on anybody not explicitly in your camp. I mean, what if those dudes had just started swinging as soon as they had their chance? Once you'd woken up in the hospital would you forgive them and chalk it up to a honest mistake? It's no wonder that most people watching clashes between antifa and police officers are going to side with law enforcement that is guided by protocol and do nothing to provoke violence. If you're going to get in an officer's face, disobey his orders, and shout "Fuck you" like some insolent teenager then you deserve to be clocked.

And calling police officers pigs is an insult to our entire country. Consider why millions of people are desperate to flee their countries and come here. It's because their countries are crime-ridden shit holes. And why is our country so safe in comparison? I'll let you puzzle that out.

[decay]

Your prior service is a moot point.

no it isn't, because you specifically are making the claim that i'm somehow afraid of violence.

we can have the discussion about whether that violence is okay, warranted, or justified, and more importantly, what gave rise to it.

since it seems you need the actual question explained to you, though- it was what tactics are gwb is calling fascist. the no-platforming thing is the first one i could think of, as far as what we actually do. i thought it might be that, so i asked a question in response, rather than pre-determining his answer and putting it in his mouth.

try to follow that example.

Who are these people specifically?

they have posted in the thread today, so i suggest you go... read? i feel like your brain would be of more value if it took more input and made less output.