S54 advice and considerations

[matt]

Did you get it just for the connector? Can I have the PCB? I have more of those connectors also if you want them.

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

[hoveringuy]

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

[nando]

Did you get it just for the connector? Can I have the PCB? I have more of those connectors also if you want them.

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

I was planning on using some of the PCB; possibly the drivers for the VANOS solenoids, definitely the coil drivers, some of the relay circuits, etc. I'd also like to set up a bench test and see what I can learn from it. I don't know if you'd want any of the leftover bits? I won't be using the CPU for sure.

MS3 has a dual core 32bit CPU. :p

MSS54 is impressive, but it's still 10 year old tech..

[nando]

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

I think the S54 ECU goes beyond that, it actually models the engine's torque output, and uses DBW to give linear torque response from the throttle input. Compared to a standard ECU, that simply takes a set of inputs, and then outputs based on a set of assumptions and a couple maps. it appears smart, but is actually pretty dumb.

Engine modeling is the future but I don't think standalones are there yet. Probably modern OE ECU's are though. if BMW was doing it 10 years ago with an M car, I'm thinking their standard ECU's are doing it now.

[Jason89i]

I'm running an s54 in my e30 m3. After a lot of thought, I ended up using the DTA management from alex at ABL. He also has a really slick cable throttle solution. Cheers, Jason

[Wanganstyle]

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

yes, but I can't control MSS54, nor is anyone willing to deliver a commercial hack solution for it.
This is why I spent money @ ABL and bought the DTA S100 for my last S54 install.


***

if you can make it (mss54) work alpha N with analog throttle and build a GUI to allow owner self-adjustment, you will immediately have my order :) -it can be just as crude as UK GUI programming :P

For some users this is the catch, at the $10K power transplant price range a couple more K for full control is not even a question for my application.... I'd run a standalone on S52 if I had to run one long term.

Adaptability is important all around the world as fuel, conditions is all different- Mechanical tune does matter when considering pure alpha N, aero and gearing matter. HFM installation would be ideal for OEM style tuning; hacking MSS54 to run like the CSL MAP/baro only setup if possible would prove very popular I'm sure.

My Cali 91 garbage octane stress+ wangan high load mapping (150-170mph over) is not even possible in many parts of the USA due to road limitations. Also, how is a tuner going to release a true alpha N tune as a blanket commercial map? I don't think this is possible-

Alpha N is electronic carburation; its not nearly as perfect as running the OEM HFM setup, it cannot be metered perfect like an HFM would read.

Few in the midwest, east coast, southern parts will be able/willing to load and stress tune like this - its risky. Just like dyno queen cars blow up, top end speed cars blow up also!

dyno mapping won't nearly be useful at 170mph over as road mapping, there are not that many roads stateside where you can do a fully loaded uphill climb through esses at 150-170mph speeds. Even some reputable local dyno tuners are afraid of serious wangan speeds/stress and tuning (i.e. 150++ mph over, they often keep top speed limiters)

[nando]

I'm planning on using a combo of alpha-N and MAP. Day to day driveability is important to me.

The big problem I see with alpha-N only is 100% throttle isn't neccesarily full load. Sometimes you can reach full load before 100% throttle.. sometimes other factors mean load is less than 100% when throttle is maxed out. Works fine on race cars and occasional weekend cars, but not my first choice for a daily driver.

I have zero interest in going over 150mph.. or even 150mph. that's like the top of 4th, which I doubt I'll ever see. Not unless I decide to do some salt flat racing. :p

[matt]

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

Well, specifically in the MSS54 one CPU controls the same stuff as any other engine (fuel and spark) and the other one manages the VANOS.

MS3 has a dual core 32bit CPU. :p

MSS54 is impressive, but it's still 10 year old tech..

Are you sure? It doesn't look like much and I can't find ANY details.

[nando]

I guess it's not truely "32" bit, but I think we should know better from the days of 8-16-32-64 bit video games that a wider bus width doesn't neccesarily mean better.

DIY says it's dual core. I don't really think it matters - it's definitely capable.

from a wiki link:

The current Megasquirt-III uses a 16bit MC9S12XEP100 processor running at 50 MHz which includes a 100 MHz RISC core.

[samiam3356]

If you guys were going to dig into a stand alone and really try to grasp it, which one would you pick? Was looking at digging into MS3 but have seen some bash the hell out of it. Also is MS3 capable of running an s54 (the only reason I would want to do the work?)

[matt]

I guess it's not truely "32" bit, but I think we should know better from the days of 8-16-32-64 bit video games that a wider bus width doesn't neccesarily mean better.

DIY says it's dual core. I don't really think it matters - it's definitely capable.

from a wiki link:

That is a nice chip. Thanks for the info.

[nando]

If you guys were going to dig into a stand alone and really try to grasp it, which one would you pick? Was looking at digging into MS3 but have seen some bash the hell out of it. Also is MS3 capable of running an s54 (the only reason I would want to do the work?)

I'd say whatever you'll be comfortable with. there's a ton of options - if you give up VANOS control, just about anything could run it. But who'd want to do that? :p

I'd be interested to know if anyone who's bashed MS3 has used one personally, or if it's just internet hearsay. I'm guessing the latter.

[M3 euro ltw]

RE: well.......

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

Matt....

First off, nothing but the highest respect for what you and your company do. Stuff of legends and rightfully so.

But, to be fair, and I believe you'd agree, while its fair to say that the factory bmw computer is capable of far more refinement and stability and even perhaps some safety (not going to lie) than affordable standalones, there are many, many limitations to going that route for people that are enthusiasts who like to tinker.

For you personally, or for financially secure people in your back-yard geographically, there may be unlimited ability and access to re-tune the factory dme whenever you want to in order to take advantage of new cams, intake, headers, exhaust etc..... but for the rest of us that can not personally hack a bmw dme and adjust maps, take away EWS or emissions or needed interactions with ASC/ABS systems etc.... its very limiting.

For people who like to tinker, or have a map for a restrictor in one class of racing, unrestricted in another, one for race gas, one for street gas, perhaps one for different pulleys on a SC system or to re-tune themselves to take advantage of new changes like cams, intake, filters, headers etc... the independence of a standalone is a huge benefit.

No one should expect to EASILY get a standalone with a handful of maps to match the smoothness of the MSS54 with many, many maps, HFM, and the restrictions imposed by having to keep cats alive, emissions in place, and such......but you can get darn close and have a enormous advantage with new features as mentioned earlier.

If you don't like to tinker, upgrade, fine tune, have different maps available, go with a reflashed factory computer, but be aware, it may not be simple or easy to upgrade and affordably re-tune locally.

Imagine a situation where a custom re-tune or re-flash is $500 each time you wanted one. Very quickly you could pay for a standalone.

I know I personally can never satisfy the itch for upgrades to go faster... I lie awake wondering how to justify a set of SS headers for the race car...I'm itching to put them on and retune the DTA for those. I'm dying to build an engine with cams, retune for those. I'm insanely curious how much more power I can tune for with ram effect using the CSL clone intake...Ram effect with an HFM? good luck on that! We have dyno proof of real gains by ditching 3.5 inch intake systems and opening it up, and we did the tuning locally and with simple rental of a dyno, just with a lap-top.

But, its not for everyone... truth is, I get a couple hiccups when its the dead of winter and below freezing. Takes some time to play with tables and get cold start routines perfected etc...Factory DME will come out of the box, ready to handle that stuff. But at the same time its intoxicating to be the one in control of the engine....

Alex.

[hoveringuy]

Alex,
You will need to excuse me if I missed this somewhere else, but does your DTA S100 come with a tune or is that the customer's responsibility? If it came pre-loaded with a generic tune for a street S54 I would say that is a compelling reason to get one, particularly if you had a library of tunes for different configurations.

What I don't like about the standalones is that everyone seems to be on their own for the tunes.

[Wanganstyle]

Imagine a situation where a custom re-tune or re-flash is $500 each time you wanted one. Very quickly you could pay for a standalone.

I have heard this said by West coast heavy duty users for boosted m50 family about the remote ness of TRM OBD2 tuning, not easily within time constraints/expense for constant fine tuning. They would love to be local to TRM, but cannot afford the proximity :(

I have also seen (around the globe) VERY successful remote mapping for high power turbo cars by TRM.

hell, I would love to be close to TRM so I could be a local customer!!!