NA is best - 3.1L M20 w/ ITB's

[ForcedFirebird]

wow,, those runners are unreal long

They are perfect. I shortened them on a dyno just to test and the TQ suffered tremendously, and the HP became very peaky.

[Alpina]

wow,, those runners are unreal long

[digger]

Picked up a set of 17lb injectors as well and had them rebuilt, I'm not sure the stock setup will be sufficient and I'd like to bump my redline a bit afterwards.

injector size has been mentioned before but id use a colder spark plug, BPR6ES is almost equivalent to the stock but 1 heat range colder and shoud work well

[digger]

As much as I don't want to continue shitting up OPs thread, this is incorrect - the newest crop of Haltechs are much better than stock E46. You've got 15-20 years more development since the M3 was designed, which in the tech world is a very very significant amount.
An Elite 1500/2500 will quite frankly shit on stock ECUs in terms of flexibility to modifications, ease of tuning, and sheer amount of features.
For example if you want an o2 bung on each header to make sure one isn't running lean then that's easy as. Can't do that on stock ECU.

I do laugh at people who do big dollar engine builds then run them on MS and tune it themselves with no idea what they're doing lol (not saying that's you)

im with Nando, if you have a NA S54 the stock ECU will do everything you need for a street car if you find a tuner that knows how to access and tune the relevant maps. screw starting from scratch on the s54 with a haltech its alot of effort for minimal real world gain

[Jaker]

That's looking pretty sweet.

[pandaboo911]

Damn. this thing is sweet, perfect tire size

any details on your wheel/tire specs?

[mr2peak]

As much as I don't want to continue shitting up OPs thread, this is incorrect - the newest crop of Haltechs are much better than stock E46. You've got 15-20 years more development since the M3 was designed, which in the tech world is a very very significant amount.
An Elite 1500/2500 will quite frankly shit on stock ECUs in terms of flexibility to modifications, ease of tuning, and sheer amount of features.
For example if you want an o2 bung on each header to make sure one isn't running lean then that's easy as. Can't do that on stock ECU.

I do laugh at people who do big dollar engine builds then run them on MS and tune it themselves with no idea what they're doing lol (not saying that's you)

take the conversation here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...82#post4729782

[Raxe]

Day 0.5:

Started messing around for a few hours this afternoon and one thing led to another and I actually got some stuff done and out of the way already.

Pulled the intake manifold, cruise control and rearranged some wiring.



Installed the E36 throttle cable. Definitely took some bending near the firewall to clear the brake booster. Stock above, E36 below:





New expansion tank... 28 years takes its toll. Easy way to freshen things up.



Very brief finger-tight test fitting. They look huge, kinda hard to believe the hood will close with an airbox yet. Still have a long way to go before I can actually bolt it all together.



Mess so far:



Tomorrow the head comes off and apart and maybe back together again.

[econti]

However, if you're talking the S54 - the stock computer is honestly better than almost all aftermarket ones, so IMO something Haltech, Link, etc. would be a downgrade anyway (especially if there's no real VANOS support). They simply do not support all of the functions the stock computer can, because it would literally be way too difficult to tune from scratch.

As much as I don't want to continue shitting up OPs thread, this is incorrect - the newest crop of Haltechs are much better than stock E46. You've got 15-20 years more development since the M3 was designed, which in the tech world is a very very significant amount.
An Elite 1500/2500 will quite frankly shit on stock ECUs in terms of flexibility to modifications, ease of tuning, and sheer amount of features.
For example if you want an o2 bung on each header to make sure one isn't running lean then that's easy as. Can't do that on stock ECU.

I do laugh at people who do big dollar engine builds then run them on MS and tune it themselves with no idea what they're doing lol (not saying that's you)

[nando]

Andrew mentioned S54 in that post. How can the MS run S54? Nobody is running MS with a fully functional S54 no way. It can't even do Ethrottle. So switch to cable like all MS people think is the solution (because E-throtlte is stupid LOL - I actually install DBW on S52 engines on purpose), without proper air bleed the throttles will never be synced right, and the geometry is not linear mechanically. You MUST bleed air properly with S54 with the idle valve or it NEVER works right. You don't even open the throttles on S54s until you are about 25% pedal position deep. This bleed air from that massive air distribution pipe evens out the syncing issue, plus eliminates the differential pressure so the throttles don't stick closed.

And VANOS, requires two HIGH SIDE outputs PER camshaft with a special PID strategy because motorsport VANOS has no default position. I could write 10 more paragraphs about this.

Haltech can't even run Motorsport Dual VANOS yet if I am not mistaken, so how the hell would DIY MS stuff come even close if they don't even have E-throttle systems? As far as I know, the ONLY system that properly controls Motorsport Dual VANOS right now is the Emtron ECU system. Link, Motec, Life, and Cosworth can too, but they overregulate the solenoids when in the target deadband, and require hardware modifications most of the time to enable them to be driven by low side outputs.

If you are saying people "run" those engines by taking off all of the parts like E-throttle/VANOS, and all the other cool stuff that makes those engines what they are then you are just talking about an engine management system that opens injectors up and turns a coil on. OF COURSE it can "run" it. Maybe switch to a distributor too. That be "dope".

MS (even MS3pro) can't be compared to the flexibility of the Link and Haltech systems. Just download the software and poke through it. Look at all the tables, offsets, compensations, map switching, table blending, and more.

There are a lot of management systems that say they "do" something, but actually can't. There is one brand advertising traction control and all they do is look at the RPM ROC to determine wheel slip. LOL.

That's all well and good, but we're talking about the M20 here - not the S54.

Megasquirt 2 or 3 will run it perfectly well. Better than the stock computer (when tuned correctly, naturally), and it is every bit as reliable (unless a monkey soldered it together - but you can get help with that too). My M20 is going on 10 years running on some form of Megasquirt, almost 80,000 miles, and I never had any problems with the hardware or software that weren't caused by myself. The fact is Megasquirt on the M20 has been done so many times that the support and info is excellent, maybe even better than some of the higher dollar standalones because nobody is going to spend $10k on a motosports computer to run a $500 M20 2.7i build.

Also, the whole point of MS is it is DIY - so yes, if you wanted to do those things the way you are saying, it could be done - there is enough I/O and software ability that somebody who was into building electronics could do whatever they wanted (which again, is the entire point). With something like Haltech it would be literally impossible because it's basically a black box you have no control over.

However, if you're talking the S54 - the stock computer is honestly better than almost all aftermarket ones, so IMO something Haltech, Link, etc. would be a downgrade anyway (especially if there's no real VANOS support). They simply do not support all of the functions the stock computer can, because it would literally be way too difficult to tune from scratch.

[AwakenNoMore]

Very curious to see what sort of power this monster makes. Love this build.

[mr2peak]

Started a new thread to compare (and continue) the M20 engine management conversation. Perhaps we can make it a good comparison reference for future use?

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?p=4729782#post4729782

Raxe, awesome build thread. Glad it sparked this conversation!

[lambo]

I love this

[SkiFree]

It's not even any cooler.

I vehemently disagree. It is infinitely cooler. Good thing we all have opinions though.

[mila325]

Or you could be the baddest dude and run triple Webers

Why would her bother running inferior technology..? It's not even any cooler.