Colorado general chat...

[Cloudbase]

Is this the one you bought Alex? Do freaking want...

http://boulder.craigslist.org/ctd/3610787386.html

Yup. It's the cleanest Civic hatch I've seen in years.

There are tons of mid size petrol cars in Europe get close to 50 mpg even when converted to the American gallon. The Ford Fiesta I rented got 55mpg American and I drove it like I stole it. I'm sure it would be 60+ if driven conservatively. I'm sure this is blasphemy here, but I think we should be paying over $5 /gallon for gas. Although I have been impressed with the efficiency gains of the past few years, I don't think there will be a driving force for real fuel economy gains across the board until gas creeps above the $5 mark.

I fly into North Dakota on a weekly basis (going there in 3 hours), getting a visual approach there is a becoming a rare event as we descend into the methane cloud.

All that said from the hypocrite who abhors new cars and DD's a 22mpg gross polluter.

[Roland H]

Alex, the one hole I see in your argument is that it's still better for the environment to drive an old, fuel inefficient car than a new fuel efficient one. The reason why being the serious environmental impact of car production is much more significant. We just don't see the brown cloud because its over china/india instead...

If we focused our efforts on making older cars more efficient (better tires, engine management, etc) instead, we'd truly be getting somewhere.

I don't like wasting fuel or polluting the environment, but I don't subscribe to the buying newer greener cars to save the environment argument either. People who buy those cars are more concerned with societal status than environmental benefit.

[blefevre]

Alex, the one hole I see in your argument is that it's still better for the environment to drive an old, fuel inefficient car than a new fuel efficient one. The reason why being the serious environmental impact of car production is much more significant. We just don't see the brown cloud because its over china/india instead...

If we focused our efforts on making older cars more efficient (better tires, engine management, etc) instead, we'd truly be getting somewhere.

I don't like wasting fuel or polluting the environment, but I don't subscribe to the buying newer greener cars to save the environment argument either. People who buy those cars are more concerned with societal status than environmental benefit.

I agree. But you still need to invest heavily into new car development for mpg and emissions. You can't realistically expect everyone to drive a 1994 civic in 2050 for example. It makes sense to buy an efficient car when you are in the market for a new car anyways, whatever reason that may be.

I think you have a pretty solid business model though. Eco tires + proper engine tuning to make older cars more efficient.

[fsmtnbiker]

There are some new technologies that can't be retrofitted to older cars (direct injection is the big one). DI alone can allow for 30+% better fuel economy between the spray pattern, hgher allowable CR, and significantly higher specific output.

That being said, Hybrids are the stupidest fucking thing currently produced on this planet. You want to talk about environmental impact... boom

I was just reading an article about why we don't have more Diesel cars in the US... It's a shame, really. I'd love to drive a 123d around every day and have a 200hp/300tq, 30+mpg combined average car.

[Roland H]

You can't realistically expect everyone to drive a 1994 civic in 2050 for example.

This is something I don't understand.... why can't I do that? The majority of aircraft are well over 25 years old, many nearing 50+ years. Aircraft cost significantly more to maintain too.

[lambo]

I've always wanted an EG hatch...

[Cloudbase]

The environmental impact of new cars is for sure a legit poor, especially hybrids, but in our consumeristic society IMO the cost benefit favors efficiency gains. Personally, I agree 100%. I'd always rather fix what I have then throw it away.

Imagine a world where everyone drove VX hatches. There would be no crossovers, people could see their blind spots and change lanes, people would know how to drive manuals, and most important people could negotiate turns with a fair degree of ease. All the while getting 40-60mpg. It would be awesome.

Diesel is the way to go for sure. I would pay new BMW money to get my hands on a 2nd gen 118d. As much as I favor BMW to Audi, at least they are bringing a wide range of diesels to the US.

[blefevre]

This is something I don't understand.... why can't I do that? The majority of aircraft are well over 25 years old, many nearing 50+ years. Aircraft cost significantly more to maintain too.

1) Increasing population and decreasing number of used cars.
2) Safety. The safety enhancements of a new car greatly outweighs the environmental savings with new car production for most people.

Due to the number of people driving and the number of accidents that would normally result in crushing, you would eventually run out of cars.

Mass producing and assembling X amount of new vehicles is probably less costly to the environment then rebuilding X amount of vehicles that have been in a wreck (complete loss) to "as-new" condition. You still have to produce the new parts to maintain a car so material cost are similar, it's just more labor intensive to rebuild a car then it is to assemble a new one.

I'm not against reusing a 10-20 year old car and driving it until it dies, that's a no-brainer, that's not what this is about. I'm talking about 50-100+ years in the future. If we halt current development on cleaner cars and production methods now and focus on old technology improvements, we reduce the chance to discover a game changing new product.

Of course I don't have numbers to back it up. I only get the thought from how our manufacturing works at my job. It takes a lot less energy to run a lot of new units then it does to rework and rebuild returned lots in the same quantity. Not to mention R&D improvements. We have old products with 25% more material costs and part count then new products that perform better and last longer. Same can go for cars.

Probably just the development engineer in me talking. I like to think if we keep focusing on improvements we won't even be driving fossil fueled cars and our energy won't be fossil fueled either. Who knows what it will be, but I sure as hell want to support finding it. If everyone starts driving a 1994 civic....that is all we ever will drive.

[Danny]

I want Bishop back.

[iamsam]

^ that was random. And I noticed you are an admin again. I guess they did bring Banny back.

[downforce22]

I want TimR back.

Fixed.

[Roland H]

1) Increasing population and decreasing number of used cars.
2) Safety. The safety enhancements of a new car greatly outweighs the environmental savings with new car production for most people.

Due to the number of people driving and the number of accidents that would normally result in crushing, you would eventually run out of cars.

Mass producing and assembling X amount of new vehicles is probably less costly to the environment then rebuilding X amount of vehicles that have been in a wreck (complete loss) to "as-new" condition. You still have to produce the new parts to maintain a car so material cost are similar, it's just more labor intensive to rebuild a car then it is to assemble a new one.

I'm not against reusing a 10-20 year old car and driving it until it dies, that's a no-brainer, that's not what this is about. I'm talking about 50-100+ years in the future. If we halt current development on cleaner cars and production methods now and focus on old technology improvements, we reduce the chance to discover a game changing new product.

Of course I don't have numbers to back it up. I only get the thought from how our manufacturing works. It takes a lot less energy to run a lot of new units then it does to rework and rebuild returned lots in the same quantity. Not to mention R&D improvements. We have old products with 25% more material costs and part count then new products that perform better and last longer. Same can go for cars.

Probably just the development engineer in me talking. I like to think if we keep focusing on improvements we won't even be driving fossil fueled cars and our energy won't be fossil fueled either. Who knows what it will be, but I sure as hell want to support finding it. If everyone starts driving a 1994 civic....that is all we ever will drive.

Good points. Having totalled my daily driver yesterday, I can understand the safety aspect a bit more. That being said, people are now taking more risks on the road now that cars are safer... so I'm not sure if there is a net gain in that department.

As for the cars per populace argument, yes, more and more are owning cars, however that doesn't mean all the old cars need to be destroyed. We destroy numerous used cars every year that don't need to go. Not talking about wrecked cars, but just older cars that have been neglected. In Hong Kong, you will never see a jalopy, because the cost of car purchase and ownership is so terribly high. However there are tons and tons of older, very well maintained cars. Maintaining cars to that level would do the environment a world of good vs just junking them.

However, I think, if we're going to go with this whole new car thing, we need to properly dispose of old cars. We need to bring back the dis-assembly line, so that the parts can be reused on the cars still on the road, and the car is disposed of in a more environmentally friendly manner.

[Bimmerman325i]

I really really want a 335d. If BMW brings smaller diesels here I'd happily get one of those too, but I don't know whether that's going to happen or not.

That's all I ask is for my next car to be built in this century, get 35+ mileage units, and not be slow.

The new Chevy cruze diesel is also making me think terrible awesome thoughts. Cheap diesel ftw?

[blefevre]

Good points. Having totalled my daily driver yesterday, I can understand the safety aspect a bit more. That being said, people are now taking more risks on the road now that cars are safer... so I'm not sure if there is a net gain in that department.

As for the cars per populace argument, yes, more and more are owning cars, however that doesn't mean all the old cars need to be destroyed. We destroy numerous used cars every year that don't need to go. Not talking about wrecked cars, but just older cars that have been neglected. In Hong Kong, you will never see a jalopy, because the cost of car purchase and ownership is so terribly high. However there are tons and tons of older, very well maintained cars. Maintaining cars to that level would do the environment a world of good vs just junking them.

However, I think, if we're going to go with this whole new car thing, we need to properly dispose of old cars. We need to bring back the dis-assembly line, so that the parts can be reused on the cars still on the road, and the car is disposed of in a more environmentally friendly manner.

I'm with you 100% on that. Neglected older cars should never be junked in the way we currently do. Either do simple fixes or dispose of it properly.

[blefevre]

I really really want a 335d. If BMW brings smaller diesels here I'd happily get one of those too, but I don't know whether that's going to happen or not.

That's all I ask is for my next car to be built in this century, get 35+ mileage units, and not be slow.

The new Chevy cruze diesel is also making me think terrible awesome thoughts. Cheap diesel ftw?

The Mazda 6 Skyactiv-D might undercut the Cruze. Plus, due to engineering hax they don't have to worry about high NOx emissions usually associated with diesels.