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    No, throttles are probably not faster than valvetronic. At least not in a way that you'd notice. We had the throttle response tweaked to high heaven, it was actually too sensitive.

    But, I do think there is potential with ITBs - but not because of the throttles specifically. the N54 manifold does work, but mostly because it just happens to bolt up. It's not like it was designed for this use either. ITBs would effectively allow you to run "without a throttle", which is also physically possible, but there'd be no fail safe. Otherwise you could just run open trumpets or add a plenum and use no throttle at all. So S54 throttles would allow you to run trumpets, either open or with a plenum, and still have a throttle backup (they stay open most of the time on the N52 anyway).

    You could also command the valve lift to 100% all the time and run it on the throttles but I'm not sure what that would drive like. When people talk about S54 throttles on an N52, I don't think they're talking about using the literal throttles to control the engine. At least they don't understand how it works if that's the case. The throttle is only there for idle and startup, and for a failsafe if something happens to the valvetronic system. The rest of the time it stays open.

    The biggest benefit to the N54 manifold is it's cheap, it bolts on, and it functions well while giving you more space in the engine bay. If it was literally the best manifold you could have on an N52, that would be a pretty big coincidence!
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      What about just a cut off intake runners coupled to an S54 airbox?

      Most valvtronic failures are intermediate levers? Maybe a broken gear on the adjuster here and there? Just saying probably more chances of internal failure than needing a fail safe.

      Ie early M54 / M52tu cars had electric and cable throttle. Most the times the rubber on the throttle cable fell apart and caused issues more than the throttles. Early M54 had harness throttle issues..

      but... not a fan of open trumpets in a hot engine bay. Just ideas.

      I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.

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        The mechanicals of valvetronic basically never fail. Sometimes the eccentric shaft sensor gets oil in it, and stops reading, so the DME sets the valves to full lift and uses the throttle instead. Rarely the motor itself fails, but that is usually from improperly removing it without setting it to the service position, which can break the shaft or chip the gears. The rockers and levers? They seem to last literally forever.

        You could just cut off the trumpets of a stock N52 manifold and run it. It would work. You could put any plenum you wanted over it too. But if the eccentric shaft sensor fails you're going to be full WOT with no way to control the engine.. that's the rub.

        So if you put the S54 throttles, whatever trumpets/plenum you want, you basically get the "open stack" design and keep the fail safe functional. It also helps that they are almost the perfect size for the N52 intake ports. :)
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          Originally posted by nando View Post
          The biggest benefit to the N54 manifold is it's cheap, it bolts on, and it functions well while giving you more space in the engine bay. If it was literally the best manifold you could have on an N52, that would be a pretty big coincidence!
          Considering we were seeing 285 at one point at 7200 the N54 manifold may not be ideal, but I can't imagine getting much more power out of an NA 3.0, particularly with only 9.9mm of lift That's somewhere around 110hp/litre.

          My beef with the N54 manifold is that it's massively ribbed to hold boost and the TB has a weird tilt to it

          Now, the sound of individual horns would be worth it.

          We need a few more N52 swapped e30's and some adventurous souls to develop it...

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            Originally posted by hoveringuy View Post

            Considering we were seeing 285 at one point at 7200 the N54 manifold may not be ideal, but I can't imagine getting much more power out of an NA 3.0, particularly with only 9.9mm of lift That's somewhere around 110hp/litre.
            +1MM if you run a MILV?


            Id be interested if I knew I could get same power to weight at a 350whp S54, And proper oil control with slicks at the track..

            I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.

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              It's not an S54, never will be. The S54 is a phenomenal motor.
              it's also much more expensive, heavier, and a bit of overkill for me
              I could seriously add +100hp to my car and only be a tiny bit faster. I'm only at full-throttle on the long straight and most everything else is handling/braking, where the light weight helps tremendously
              OIl control with the cosworth flaps in the oil pan baffle is superb!

              Yep, MILV would bump me another 15+/-
              Last edited by hoveringuy; 07-09-2021, 11:19 PM.

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                yeah, you're never getting 350whp out of an N52, without boost anyway. I think 285-300 is doable. Is it worth it? I'm not sure. I didn't even bury Steve's car and it was pretty fast for me, lol.

                Yeah, sound is definitely part of it too. I'm just saying, the N54 manifold works, but it's not exactly ideal. What it really has going for it is cost, you can get them for like $20. Maybe I'll try that CF Nylon filament and 3D print my own.. lol
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                  Does the N52 have issues with the timing chain on track? I’ve heard the chain can skip if you slightly miss a downshift etc. Is this true?

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                    I've never heard of that.
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                      I've seen a few n52's slip timing, usually due to a locked up AC compressor or a failed tensioner causing the belt to bind. I have never had one suffer engine damage from this though, just replace the crank bolt & re time the engine. Manual transmission cars use an extra friction disc in the front crank hub to help with preventing slip from a rough down shift.
                      On the n54 manifold, I have read e90 posts that say the port match is not perfect & if you smoke the intake they leak, have you noticed this?

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                        Originally posted by hoveringuy View Post
                        The baseline dyno showed that, indeed, it was a bit down on power at only 242hp/ and 227ft-lb. It had made around 270hp with no MAF (and no air filter...) and I expected to to recoup most of that, but expected a penalty for the MAF and the filter.
                        By playing with the timing and VANOS they were able to get it back up to 268hp and 246ft-lbs. It looks like there's a dip in torque at 2200 and 4000, but I think that the headers are just so strong at 3000 that it only appears that way. Drives great, pulls noticeably harder now and has an amazing amount of torque down low that makes me question why *anybody* would want a DISA intake on the N52.
                        Well, this certainly changes things from N52 being a potentially good pipe dream to amazing upgrade and should see a lot more of them, particularly in E36s as S52s dwindle in number and increase in price. N52s can be had for a song and love how low maintenance mine has been.

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                          Originally posted by Caperix View Post
                          I've seen a few n52's slip timing, usually due to a locked up AC compressor or a failed tensioner causing the belt to bind. I have never had one suffer engine damage from this though, just replace the crank bolt & re time the engine. Manual transmission cars use an extra friction disc in the front crank hub to help with preventing slip from a rough down shift.
                          On the n54 manifold, I have read e90 posts that say the port match is not perfect & if you smoke the intake they leak, have you noticed this?
                          If it happens it has to be exceptionally rare. The crank hub design is the same on the N53, N54, and N55, so a handful out of literally millions of engines.

                          the ports of the N54 manifold I think is offset a bit but you can adjust it. I don't know exactly what Steve did to his, slot the bolt holes or something? I don't see why it would leak, it uses the same gaskets as the N52 manifold.

                          Originally posted by rwh11385 View Post

                          Well, this certainly changes things from N52 being a potentially good pipe dream to amazing upgrade and should see a lot more of them, particularly in E36s as S52s dwindle in number and increase in price. N52s can be had for a song and love how low maintenance mine has been.
                          Yeah, I don't know why you would want an S52 over this, especially for what they cost now. The only thing I can think of is the swap is a bit simpler and doesn't need much fabrication on an E30. But in the E36 it's basically bolt together.
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                            Originally posted by Caperix View Post
                            On the n54 manifold, I have read e90 posts that say the port match is not perfect & if you smoke the intake they leak, have you noticed this?
                            If you just straight-up bolt the N54 manifold on the ports are mis-aligned by about 2.5mm. There is an easy way to shim the the bore for the manifold bolts (they pop out and can be adjusted). Super easy, but yes it can leak if not done

                            The last S52 was manufactured over 20 years ago now, N52s are falling out of the trees.

                            They are famous for blowing their tiny little head gaskets. This is what it looks like. .

                            https://youtu.be/_mEohPpKNlU

                            (That's back when I had the N54)
                            Last edited by hoveringuy; 07-11-2021, 09:48 AM.

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                              Did you slot the steel inserts in the intake, or did you get offset bored inserts?
                              The timing slip is not common, I have seen 10 personally. The modded s55 guys have reported slipping at higher power levels but a n52 will never make those numbers. I would install the friction ring if the engine came out of an auto car for peace of mind if it was going to be driven hard

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                                Do you have a part #? my DD is a 6mt N52, but the engine I have on a stand is an auto.. I'd bet 95% of N52s sourced from a yard are going to be automatics as well.

                                I actually always wondered why you couldn't just key the crank hub. Cam timing is completely independent of the crank sprocket, so the clocking of that isn't important during assembly - I feel like you could just drill a hole and put in a dowel pin pretty easy.
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