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    I see timing slip more when the exhaust cam housing seizes up. - N52

    Probably promoted more from poor oil service…

    You can look up S55 fixes for the crank hub.

    I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.

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      I don't have the part number for the friction ring, realoem shows it as grayed out, I wonder if BMW started etching the oil pump gear at some point like they started on the n20 to serve the same purpose.

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        Well, I'm 99% sure I'm going to drill a hole and dowel mine, lol. I pretty much want to rebuild the entire engine anyway.

        Anyway, even if this was a serious issue - and I'm not convinced of that - N52s are so cheap/common. It would be more of an annoyance, not a huge setback like losing $20k repairing an ugly, 4000lb F30 "M3". My N52 was literally hundreds of dollars, lol. I think you could do even better now..
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          Well my buddy and I are officially aboard the train. Picked up 2 N52ks and 2 DCTs this weekend.

          With how affordable standalones have become in recent years and the fact that these are race cars with no need to integrate with anything factory at all we're thinking its going to be best to go that route. Hopefully anything we learn with respect to making power and keeping the engines reliable on track will be relevant to others in this thread.

          As far as the timing is concerned we're likely going to key the crank hub like Nando suggested. It seems like the most foolproof solution and I'll be sure to get some pics when we get there.

          The only thing I'm hung up on with respect to standalones is I'm not sure I'm going to be able to run valvetronic. The other N52 race engines I've been able to find on the internet have all locked the valvetronic at max lift and either used an N54 manifold and throttle body or ITBs adapted from a euro S50 or S54. Are there any performance losses by not using valvetronic? I think the system is really cool and it kind of makes me squirm to think about bypassing it, but it's beginning to look like a standalone with DCT or valvetronic with MSV70 and we're committed to getting the DCT to work. It's going to be absolutely amazing in the race cars.

          How is the stepper motor that controls valvetronic functionally different than a normal TBW throttle body like in an M54 for example? Looking at how valvetronic works it seems to me it should be similar.
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            I mean, MSV70 is pretty easy to work with. And it definitely reports the values over CAN that would be needed. My only hesitation is have never seen a factory DCT car with an N52, but I know they exist (just not in the US). So I have never messed with any of those parameters. Manual is easy because the driver does the shifting and you don't need to care about it while tuning, lol.

            You could mechanically lock the Valvetronic to full lift and use a normal throttle of course, which a few people have done. You definitely can't control it like it was a throttle body, there's no linear relationship between pedal input and valve lift.

            I don't think you're going to get any standalone that is going to control it properly either - the factory software is insanely complex, especially because it has to be 100% safe to avoid uncontrolled throttle output. Even if somebody advertises Valvetronic support I'd be extremely skeptical.

            I'm not sure how locking it affects the torque curve, but one of the advantages is you control lift so you can keep intake port velocity high at all times. I assume WOT power would be the same but you might give up low end torque, which is maybe less important on a race car.

            Are you using a standalone box to control the DCT?
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              I will be interested to see how your n52 dct works our, that is what I am leaning towards for my car. Staying with the factory modules would be nice, the standalone dct controllers need alot of time tuning from what I have read. Like nando said there are no documented n52 dct swaps so its unknown how msv70/80 will work with it. You will also probably need a compatible abs system, and the factory software will set errors if the rear end ratio is to far from what it was designed for, 2.78 for the standard, 3.08 for the gts I think.
              If you are not going to use valvetronic what about putting a n54 head on it & using msd80 with a n53 map? You will have to use direct injection so a n54 vacuum pump and high pressure pump would be needed, but msd80 does work with duct.

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                The N54 head is not great for N/A. Unless you're going to spend a whole lot of money porting it. And then you'll be stuck with a bunch of extra problems the N52 doesn't have (bad injectors, carbon buildup, failed mofsets, HPFPs, etc). The N53 only makes like 5 more HP than the highest spec N52.. so I don't think there's much point in going there anyway.

                The N52 definitely came in some models with DCT, they were just never sold here and I don't know much about them. Either way, when it comes to that part, you're kind of on your own really. I can only help with what I know.
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                  I always thought that DCT was tightly integrated between the ECU and the transmission. I'd like to learn more.
                  How would this be shifted? Mtech 1 paddle shifters? Strictly automatic?

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                    AFAIK, the DCT tells the DME it's going to shift, and the DME reduces torque (among other things). the DME controls the rev limiter but the DCT controls the shift points.

                    it works a lot like the automatics do, except for the clutches instead of the torque convertor. I assume paddles would work?

                    Does the standard DCT really need VSS input? Could it just get it from the DME?
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                      It's interesting to me that the factory tuning for valvetronic is so complicated. I could see how the MSV70 could be programmed to take a lot of extra variables into consideration if the goal was the perfect fuel mixture and optimal fuel economy, but based on how it works mechanically I don't see how it wouldn't be possible to set up some kind of simplified relationship between the valvetronic position and pedal position.

                      I have been trying to find which models came with an N52 and DCT but I'm actually think there weren't any at this point. All models on realoem that came with an N52 do not list the DCT as a transmission options no matter which region I select. If there was one that would be great but it may not solve all my problems. Caperix mentions differential ratios being a problem. If that's the case I will definitely run into that because I'm going to be running a 3.91 or something even higher. The classes I run in are based around power to weight, so running shorter gears is a big advantage. The higher redline potential of the N52 was one of the biggest draws for me in the first place for this reason. ABS is simple as the MK60 is amazing and a fully standalone system on it's own.


                      I do believe the DCT works by sending power cut and blip requests to the ECU when you call for a shift. At least that is how the major GCUs/standalones on the market operate. Right now if I do go with a standalone I'm leading toward the Maxxecu. They are the only standalone manufacturer I've seen that can integrate with the factory DCT TCU which to me is a big advantage. At least one VSS is required, but I'd have to dig into the pinouts on the DCT connector to see if it's getting VSS directly in the factory application. You can read more about the Maxxecu DCT stuff here if you're curious: https://www.maxxecu.com/webhelp/advanced-bmw_dct.html.

                      You guys have already shown that the MSV70 can make great power in a track car application and for racers just looking to run an N52 with a manual there's certainly no reason not to use it. It looks like there are still hurdles to overcome with the tuning side of things, but I'm sure that will come in time. For me and my buddy the challenge is the DCT. He's all in on the standalone because they've already made it work at Maxxecu and they are easier to tune, but I would have a hard time ditching the MSV70 if it meant I could run valvetronic and have my cake too. I also think it would make this conversion more accessible for people who are turned off by a standalone. I have a lot more research to do but I appreciate this thread and the discussion here.

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                        Reading on the s85 dct swaps they said that there is very few differences in the code between manual & dct cars unlike smg cars that had huge differences. Unfortunately the only way to see if it will work may be to install it & see. The paddle shifters should be easy, they are a can signal that just needs to be added to the can translator.
                        Using the n54 head was just a thought to use msd80 that does support dct. Staying with msv70/80 would be best if possible.

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                          You can't because it's a non-linear relationship. Pedal input = driver requested torque, not valve lift. At the Valvetronic end, that might mean increasing valve lift, or decreasing it depending on engine load, torque needs from the water pump, steering, alternator, etc. - even if the pedal input remains exactly the same. There is no direct correlation. I mean, by all means, give it a shot if you want. I'm just skeptical it will ever work properly.

                          Besides that, because throttle input is a safety issue, there's like a million plausibility checks and limp mode fail safe modes that are going to trip you up.

                          You can change the gear ratio in the DME, that's easy. I don't know about the DCT system, but people tune them so I don't see why you couldn't. The DCT will need a 48 tooth signal for VSS - might be able to get that with a later ABS system, but I don't know if it has to be CAN or not. On the DME side we just run the normal 9 pulse VSS straight into the DME and adjust the scaling factor by 9/48. If that works then you could do the same thing with the DCT I imagine.

                          FYI, the euro 630i and I think 530i with an N52 were the models available with the SMG/DCT system. They definitely exist (I just looked) In any case, it has the needed maps to interface with it - there are 3 sets, one for MT, one for AT, and one for ACT, the "automatic manual". they later renamed it to DCT in MSD80/81 but it does the same thing like you say, the transmission sends a request to reduce torque as needed.

                          You guys definitely have a lot of work to do! :)
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                            Originally posted by Caperix View Post
                            Reading on the s85 dct swaps they said that there is very few differences in the code between manual & dct cars unlike smg cars that had huge differences. Unfortunately the only way to see if it will work may be to install it & see. The paddle shifters should be easy, they are a can signal that just needs to be added to the can translator.
                            Using the n54 head was just a thought to use msd80 that does support dct. Staying with msv70/80 would be best if possible.
                            There's no difference at all on MSV70 and later cars. All of the code and program is there regardless if you have manual, auto, SMG/DCT. The M cars were a very different animal, MSS54 and MSS60/65 are extremely different from the "normal" cars. Now they're all basically the same thing.. heck, the Z4 runs MSS70 which is 99% identical to MSV70. It even has valvetronic maps although they're used differently, lol

                            Actually, for that matter, MSD80/81 and later are all rooted in MSV70, and the programming is nearly identical, it just has more maps for turbo and is compiled for Tri-Core CPUs instead of the MPC563. The early dumps of MSD80 are actually named as "MSD70".
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                              This thread has been a fun read!

                              I will be undertaking at some point after the S52T comes out of my RHD touring, a full transplant of an N52B30K / 6 speed from my roommates untimely arsoned 2011 328i. I have a CAN emulator and harness on its way to retain the CAS and make the engine (hopefully) run, but is there anything else I should specifically save from the complete donor chassis?

                              Pan sounds like by far the toughest solution. I have a steel pan, plan to have that pickup tube spacer milled at work to push it back one main cap and cut a portion of the steel pan out in conjunction with modiftying the subframe and moving the rack/sway bar forward.

                              Those who have done this with the aluminum rear sump pans, about how many inches did you have to take out in conjunction with the subframe modding?

                              Are Z4 mount arms the way to go, or is it worth paying that one company that makes 'N54 E30' fabricated arms?

                              TIA. I think this will be a GREAT power and livability pairing for an E30.
                              1991 E30 M3 Brilliant/black - S54B32/5M
                              1990 E30 318iT RHD Lagunagrun/tan - S52B32Turbo/5M
                              2011 E82 1M VO/blk/6M
                              1991 E31 850i red/grey/6M
                              1997 F355 spider red/tan/6M

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                                Originally posted by nando View Post

                                There's no difference at all on MSV70 and later cars. All of the code and program is there regardless if you have manual, auto, SMG/DCT. The M cars were a very different animal, MSS54 and MSS60/65 are extremely different from the "normal" cars. Now they're all basically the same thing.. heck, the Z4 runs MSS70 which is 99% identical to MSV70. It even has valvetronic maps although they're used differently, lol

                                Actually, for that matter, MSD80/81 and later are all rooted in MSV70, and the programming is nearly identical, it just has more maps for turbo and is compiled for Tri-Core CPUs instead of the MPC563. The early dumps of MSD80 are actually named as "MSD70".
                                This is not too surprising. There is a huge amount of time/expense in validating a completely new software platform. If you can have one platform that covers multiple models then you just need to enable/disable functionality, but its no bother just hanging out there. If you build on an old platform you only need to validate the new function, and have a lesser regression test to make sure you didn’t FUBAR something that used to work just fine.

                                You may even find code that is not utilized until later platforms because it was being used in development at the time. Its hard to validate functionality on a large scale using only RCP code.
                                -Nick

                                M42 on VEMS

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