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New booster option for e30 - Bosch iBooster

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    #61
    I haven't seen any swaps on r3v that use this, but it seems like a reasonable alternative to these more complex booster solutions that keep popping up and not actually being pursued. https://www.compbrake.com/product/bm...ylinder-kit-b/ bore sizes down to 14mm are available in this style of AP racing master cylinder, so there is no doubt that you could easily get pedal force down to a reasonable level.
    @turbovarg
    '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
    [b u i l d]
    [Car of the month: April 2018]

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      #62
      Originally posted by varg View Post
      I haven't seen any swaps on r3v that use this, but it seems like a reasonable alternative to these more complex booster solutions that keep popping up and not actually being pursued. https://www.compbrake.com/product/bm...ylinder-kit-b/ bore sizes down to 14mm are available in this style of AP racing master cylinder, so there is no doubt that you could easily get pedal force down to a reasonable level.
      It was mentioned in exactly one thread, but it didn’t sound like they’d installed it yet (and they had a gen2).

      You’ve linked a manual pedal box... the reason the bores are so small is to give you mechanical advantage for braking. Changing the pivot point and lever length on the brake pedal can do the same thing.

      The disadvantage of a manual brake system is you get the power by adding pedal travel. Stepping down from a 23mm master to a 14mm will give your roughly three times the braking power, but at the expense of three times the pedal travel.

      The new opportunity here with the Bosch electric booster is that it will clear *any* 24v intake manifold, retains power brakes, retains the dual-circuit brake system (a safety feature where the front and rear brakes are on completely separate circuits in case you blow a brake hose), retains factory ABS (which the forward located e34 booster deletes it) and doesn’t require any firewall modification.

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        #63
        Originally posted by hubcapboy View Post
        It was mentioned in exactly one thread, but it didn’t sound like they’d installed it yet (and they had a gen2).
        No. There have been other mentions of other electric boosters in other threads and gross misunderstandings of the equipment and its installation. Last time I saw them come up I had to point out that what was being discussed was not a booster at all. Luckily you know what you're talking about.

        Originally posted by hubcapboy View Post
        You’ve linked a manual pedal box... the reason the bores are so small is to give you mechanical advantage for braking. Changing the pivot point and lever length on the brake pedal can do the same thing.
        Why yes, it is a manual pedal box. I'm glad you pointed that out to me I didn't know that furthermore, nobody suggested going straight to 14mm from stock size just pointed out that there's a massive range of sizes available which make pedal effort an easily remedied problem. It isn't necessary to try and "triple" (going from 23 to 14mm would be a 2.7x change, not 3x), it is only necessary to bring brake force down to a level that is streetable to the driver(s) of the vehicle. I am more than aware of the intricacies of how a braking system works are and have corrected others here and called out chase bays for misrepresenting their single circuit master cylinder kit. Unfortunately they continue to do so...

        While they are not for everyone, there is nothing wrong with manual brakes in modified street cars as long as they are done correctly, and I assure you that having driven in a pinch with a failed check valve and disconnected line that it isn't remotely necessary to try and triple the hydraulic advantage unless you're trying to configure your engine swapped E30 for that 5th percentile of women from that 1970 NBS study on brake force, a difference of less than 2x is necessary. Nor does an increase in pedal travel in an unboosted car have quite as dramatic an effect as you imply. It's far more hazardous to the safety of other road users to cobble together hydroboost systems from junkyard parts, use outright dangerous chase bays single circuit master cylinders, or build iffy looking unengineered remote booster setups, than it is to install a twin or tandem cylinder manual brake setup with more pedal travel which can still lock the brakes on dry pavement without undue effort. I hope you get the electronics side of it working correctly and that it's simple to configure, but there is always this cheap, safe and effective option for all kinds of swaps.

        Also, some things are not adequately protected from water intrusion in all orientations, something further to look into is to sure to make sure it is well sealed in the inverted position and shielded if it is not.
        Last edited by varg; 10-18-2020, 08:33 PM.
        @turbovarg
        '91 318is, M20B25, T3/T04E 60 trim (18psi), megasquirt, coilovers, Z3 rack, cold AC
        [b u i l d]
        [Car of the month: April 2018]

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          #64
          If you've got so much water under the hood that the brake booster is getting soaked.. I think you have bigger problems than worrying about the brake booster.

          Calm down dude.. but thanks for the informative post. I think everyone here knows how manual brakes work. My first car had manual brakes from the factory - I'll just say, no fucking thanks.
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            #65
            Hi.

            So, I don’t want to start a fight. We’ve just already had one item that wasn’t a brake booster posted here. Maybe I should have said “he” instead of “you.” I imagine that more than one person other than you might be reading my reply, so I just thought I’d clarify a huge reason why this is an advantage over manual braking: no increase in pedal travel.

            Im really, really, sorry that I rounded to 3. It’s actually not 2.7 either if you’d like to go back up and edit again. We could just keep adding digits if you want.

            https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...04#post9943204

            Since we’re being so precise, it’s unclear why you think I’d say “it was mentioned in exactly one thread” if it hadn’t been mentioned in exactly one thread.

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              #66
              Originally posted by varg View Post
              It's far more hazardous to the safety of other road users to cobble together hydroboost systems from junkyard parts, use outright dangerous chase bays single circuit master cylinders, or build iffy looking unengineered remote booster setups, than it is to install a twin or tandem cylinder manual brake setup with more pedal travel which can still lock the brakes on dry pavement without undue effort.
              This solution is not a hydroboost, has dual circuits, was engineered by bosch to mount directly to the firewall on an identical flange to the E30, and retains factory ABS. All the reasons you have listed are exactly why we are pursuing this.

              Originally posted by varg View Post
              Also, some things are not adequately protected from water intrusion in all orientations, something further to look into is to sure to make sure it is well sealed in the inverted position and shielded if it is not.
              If you read the whole thread you would know it is used in the "inverted" orientation in a RHD model. Actually its on the first page.

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                #67
                I'm convinced that somewhere, there exists another MC that's not necessarily Tesla, fits the same bolt pattern as the gen 1 ibooster, and has a bore suitable to the E30 with the ports on the correct side.

                For one, these kinds of parts don't get made in a vacuum. Tesla buys from suppliers like everyone else - suppliers who want to save as much capital on tooling and designs as possible.

                So the same reason this bolts into the same firewall pattern as the E30 (and every BMW since the dawn of time, apparently), there must be more than one MC that bolts to the ibooster.

                Anyway, just wasting time on a google image search, I think the i3 MC is a potential candidate - and, it's cheap. Thoughts? Part # 34336858911

                https://ebay.us/DGb7Yh
                Last edited by nando; 10-19-2020, 11:26 PM.
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                  #68
                  Tough to say without getting one in hand, but looking at the photos did make me think that threading the reservoir bungs and remote-mounting the reservoir could be an option... then you could just run the master cylinder inverted as well.

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                    #69
                    RHD Model S booster in. Anything you folks wanted as far as measurements?
                    Attached Files

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                      #70
                      The X3/X4 MC looks promising as well:
                      https://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-2015-B...3/143761928740

                      I can get both an i3 *and* X3 MC for less than the cost of shipping a RHD Model S MC from Australia.. so I might just go for it. Brand new X3/X4 MCs are like $100, and I'll bet the Model S reservoir will fit. if it works you guys can thank me later :p
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                        #71
                        Originally posted by Bored View Post
                        RHD Model S booster in. Anything you folks wanted as far as measurements?
                        Looks clean, nice score on the RHD master cylinder. Mine will be here within the hour (LHD though). Can't wait to mess with it. :)
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                          #72
                          The i3 and x3 masters looks like they have a smaller diameter "plug" on the interface into the booster. They certainly aren't the same shape (there's a side-shot of mine separated on the first page).

                          I haven't taken my pedal linkage apart or taken a good look at it. We're going to need to lengthen it, if anyone wants to take a look at how best to do that.

                          I'm also curious what the Tesla hard line flares look like if you unscrew one. I think they're M12 ISO double flares (not bubble flares). I ordered the wrong adapters the first time.

                          If I was stuck with a LHD master and didn't think I'd have room for the ports on the engine-side, I think I'd try attaching to the reservoir ports and mounting it upside down. This is a similar idea:

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	wilwood-compact-remote-tandem[1].jpg Views:	0 Size:	84.9 KB ID:	9956829

                          There shouldn't be any pressure there other than the head from the remote reservoirs, and as long as they're mounted above the master the cylinder won't know which way up it is.

                          This would put your outlets on the fender side and your reservoir connection on the bottom. It would actually give you *even more* room because the next closest interference if you're doing something crazy like ITB's is probably the reservoir tank. It would also open up your shopping options to any ibooster master with the right diameters, because the shape of the reservoir is no longer important.

                          You could even use the Chevrolet Bolt master, which is super goofy and at 45 deg rotation:

                          https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-2017-C...gAAOSwUORd~Q2b

                          (before you get too excited about that whole thing being $83 with the booster and everything... that one's different at the firewall, although it does suggest that sourcing a replacement "booster" out of the middle of your RHD assembly is going to be cheap going forward.
                          Last edited by hubcapboy; 10-20-2020, 06:53 PM.

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                            #73
                            Mine came with cut off fittings - I can take pics/measurements when I get a chance to disassemble it.

                            As fast as the MC - I'll have to find out. I got an i3 MC for the cost of a nice lunch, so if it doesn't work out, no big loss. It does however appear to be 23mm, so that would be awesome if it does work.
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                              #74
                              BTW, the Honda Accord and CRV (that use iBoosters) come with a remote reservoir from the factory that will attach to the same style MC used on the Model S. I don't know if they'd work upside down, but they would certainly increase the clearance for different manifold setups.
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                                #75
                                Originally posted by nando View Post
                                BTW, the Honda Accord and CRV (that use iBoosters) come with a remote reservoir from the factory that will attach to the same style MC used on the Model S. I don't know if they'd work upside down, but they would certainly increase the clearance for different manifold setups.
                                oh that's pretty goofy... well spotted

                                Click image for larger version

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                                For anyone trying to track down plugs, any of the dismantlers who have these parts listed are probably just unplugging them and scrapping the harnesses for copper. If you reach out directly to the dismantler and they specialize in these types of cars, chances are they have one that hasn't been taken apart yet, or a shell sitting in the yard with the harness intact. Don't confuse "not listed on ebay" with "not available" when it comes to factory plugs.

                                If you're asking, you'll need the large power and computer connector, the small pedal position sensor connector (which loops back into the large connector) and the float level sensor and switch. There's no penetration into the tank for the level switch... it's a reed switch that's operated through the reservoir from below.

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