High Revving N/A V8 Engine Swap - Thoughts?

[varg]

Yer if you've got budget for a Ferrari 360 Modena engine built conversion, just buy the Ferrari Modena....it will be way better. There was a 360 at the local coffee and cars the other week, what a cool machine. Best enjoyed in red, with manual gated shifter.

I mean at this level of cost, nothing is out of the question in terms of options, pick your gearbox and engine and just make it work. cut the body around the engine and gearbox, mount everything, then rebuild the car around all the things. Then apply paint and carpet to taste.

I don't know, but it's a fun excise vs talking about buying the most ordinary ferrari (360s don't even seem make it into the exotics section at palm beach cars and coffee ). Swapping an E30 or any car is not going to make financial sense but if you're into financial sense you go get your CPA and buy a Camry, you don't customize cars. It's a hobby. Plus, 360 modenas are dead slow by our spoiled, modern standards... a 718 cayman or C6 Z06... heck probably a Golf R would ruin a Modena around a track, and the press cars did mid 12s in the 1/4mi; ferrari is the cheatingist of car manufacturers so you know a customer 360 is probably in the high 12s/low 13s. Remember, there was a time when (maybe still now) Ferrari would blacklist you as a customer if you let a magazine test your new car instead of the magazine testing one of the hopped up factory specials, they didn't even let anyone test their halo car head to head with the other halo cars. Not that OP wants to do this for the best E30 performance, in that case he'd just put a built turbo M20 in the car or an LS3 out of a Commodore with bolt-ons in the car and blow the doors off the 360, the S65 swapped hypothetical E30 while saving tens of thousands of dollars in the process.

So the built S65 would be a bit over half the price at 22k pounds. I've been speaking to Elise Racing in the UK for this and they've quoted 14k pounds for a 4.2L long block (with all the headwork), 6k pounds for the dry sump and 2k pounds for all the ancillaries and a custom intake which sits a little lower (a necessity to ensure the E30 hood closes). A DCT which bolts up directly to this is another additional 2.5k pounds with new clutch packs.

The Ferrari engine, with have a rebuilt bottom end to factory specs and headwork to get it to 9000 RPM, will cost a bit extra (3k pound extra roughly) from Elise Racing as well. However this is expected given that it'll need custom intakes and plenums (as the current ones face the other way for a mid engined set up), and will also need a custom engine to gearbox mount to get it working with the same DCT (which is an added 2.5k pounds as stated above).

For both set ups, it'll cost an extra 3.2k pounds for the custom Syvecs ECU, but this is what Elise Racing have tested extensively and it's also one they've used for DCT control as well.

Both very very expensive set ups and at the end of the day may not be worth it. So far, I'm just planning and doing research to see whether it can be done or not.

Can't argue with that, they must have a cheaper way to do it over there in bongland because I googled some 4.2 stroker stuff and found the kit was indeed over $10,000 US.

[purna97]

I don't know, but it's a fun excise vs talking about buying the most ordinary ferrari (360s don't even seem make it into the exotics section at palm beach cars and coffee ). Swapping an E30 or any car is not going to make financial sense but if you're into financial sense you go get your CPA and buy a Camry, you don't customize cars. It's a hobby. Plus, 360 modenas are dead slow by our spoiled, modern standards... a 718 cayman or C6 Z06... heck probably a Golf R would ruin a Modena around a track, and the press cars did mid 12s in the 1/4mi; ferrari is the cheatingist of car manufacturers so you know a customer 360 is probably in the high 12s/low 13s. Remember, there was a time when (maybe still now) Ferrari would blacklist you as a customer if you let a magazine test your new car instead of the magazine testing one of the hopped up factory specials, they didn't even let anyone test their halo car head to head with the other halo cars. Not that OP wants to do this for the best E30 performance, in that case he'd just put a built turbo M20 in the car or an LS3 out of a Commodore with bolt-ons in the car and blow the doors off the 360, the S65 swapped hypothetical E30 while saving tens of thousands of dollars in the process.



Can't argue with that, they must have a cheaper way to do it over there in bongland because I googled some 4.2 stroker stuff and found the kit was indeed over $10,000 US.

That's a fair point haha! As much as I love the 360, it's no longer competes with more modern cars in terms of outright performance. I know if I slightly modify my M3, it would beat a 360 without a doubt.

That's also another point I wanted to make, there aren't many cars that can top the M3 level of performance and exoticness at the same price point or slightly higher (which is all that I can afford). The used car market has skyrocketed, and whilst I will benefit from it too when I sell my M3, things like Porsche 911 997s or a Ferrari 360, which to most would seem like good natural progression cars from the M3 are all a good solid 40k Australian dollars and more. Hence, this is why I turned to possibly building my E30 instead and giving it all the good things from cars that are now outside of my price range, and honestly a 360 engine swapped E30 would run rings around both the M3 and actual 360, given that it's set up right.


Also 14k pounds (18k USD) seems pretty consistent with 4.2L S65 long blocks from say Carbahn (Dinan). Though maybe a little cheaper, but I won't complain haha!

[e30davie]

I don't know, but it's a fun excise vs talking about buying the most ordinary ferrari (360s don't even seem make it into the exotics section at palm beach cars and coffee ). Swapping an E30 or any car is not going to make financial sense but if you're into financial sense you go get your CPA and buy a Camry, you don't customize cars. It's a hobby. Plus, 360 modenas are dead slow by our spoiled, modern standards... a 718 cayman or C6 Z06... heck probably a Golf R would ruin a Modena around a track, and the press cars did mid 12s in the 1/4mi; ferrari is the cheatingist of car manufacturers so you know a customer 360 is probably in the high 12s/low 13s. Remember, there was a time when (maybe still now) Ferrari would blacklist you as a customer if you let a magazine test your new car instead of the magazine testing one of the hopped up factory specials, they didn't even let anyone test their halo car head to head with the other halo cars. Not that OP wants to do this for the best E30 performance, in that case he'd just put a built turbo M20 in the car or an LS3 out of a Commodore with bolt-ons in the car and blow the doors off the 360, the S65 swapped hypothetical E30 while saving tens of thousands of dollars in the process.

hah yer, cant argue with that. Ferrari is a merchandise company that sells cars. And yer all the exclusivity BS really puts me off it, and the blacklisting stories - childish. You cant buy the fancy ones until youve got your Ferrari card stamped 4 times by the dealer. But in saying that, when you do see a ferrari, there is a certain mystique about them. maybe california not so much if they are everywhere, but around me they are very rare to see unless at cars and coffees. and yes the 360 is not the most desirable, but i dunno, still a v12 gated shifter red ferrari!

[nando]

Yer if you've got budget for a Ferrari 360 Modena engine built conversion, just buy the Ferrari Modena....it will be way better. There was a 360 at the local coffee and cars the other week, what a cool machine. Best enjoyed in red, with manual gated shifter.

I mean at this level of cost, nothing is out of the question in terms of options, pick your gearbox and engine and just make it work. cut the body around the engine and gearbox, mount everything, then rebuild the car around all the things. Then apply paint and carpet to taste.

I hadn't really thought of that angle. I'm not really into supercars, or Ferrari's - honestly even if I did want to waste part of my fortune on one, I'd never be able to use it - but if you can afford a Ferrari engine and everything that goes into keeping one running, just buy a Ferrari and be done with it. (Ferraris are seriously rare here too - even extremely old ones).

I've been thinking of engine swaps for so long that I've been married, had kids, and forgotten about it before the E46 M3 was rendered obsolete. My ultimate passion swap has always been the S54 - in that time, and for even my meager efforts - I could have just bought an E46 M3 and been far better off. Of course I didn't do that, and I don't necessarily regret it..

I don't want to tell the OP what to like or what to do, but part of the charm of the E30 is most (all?) of them weren't actually fast, the vast majority were just beater cars to whoever owned them, and a tiny sliver of them remain in enthusiast hands - which at this point, anyone reading this thread, even if your ideas are the dumbest ever in the history of R3v - you're an E30 enthusiast.

So as an enthusiast you have to figure out what you really want from the the E30. I don't think flipping the E30 for a profit qualifies (we've certainly seen plenty of that), so you're still in, because nobody would seriously consider a $25k+ engine swap and expect to profit. You're certain to end upside down, even in this insane market.

But ask yourself - what will make you actually enjoy the car more? To some, it's the driving experience. If that is the case, minimize your downtime/costs and just enjoy it for what it is. These days, even the fastest M20 is slow, but even so, I still find it far more thrilling than anything modern I've been in. It would be far less thrilling if it was a non-running parts car trapped in my garage with $20k sunk into it and no end in sight to finishing. That's the trap I'm advising against.

Of course, if you mostly enjoy the build portion, and don't care about how long the car is out of commission or how expensive it will be, then do whatever swap makes you happy. You'll probably sell it anyway, and in this market you might get lucky and break even regardless. It's entirely possible that a functioning Ferrari engine will be worth as much as the whole build, lol.

[purna97]

I hadn't really thought of that angle. I'm not really into supercars, or Ferrari's - honestly even if I did want to waste part of my fortune on one, I'd never be able to use it - but if you can afford a Ferrari engine and everything that goes into keeping one running, just buy a Ferrari and be done with it. (Ferraris are seriously rare here too - even extremely old ones).

I've been thinking of engine swaps for so long that I've been married, had kids, and forgotten about it before the E46 M3 was rendered obsolete. My ultimate passion swap has always been the S54 - in that time, and for even my meager efforts - I could have just bought an E46 M3 and been far better off. Of course I didn't do that, and I don't necessarily regret it..

I don't want to tell the OP what to like or what to do, but part of the charm of the E30 is most (all?) of them weren't actually fast, the vast majority were just beater cars to whoever owned them, and a tiny sliver of them remain in enthusiast hands - which at this point, anyone reading this thread, even if your ideas are the dumbest ever in the history of R3v - you're an E30 enthusiast.

So as an enthusiast you have to figure out what you really want from the the E30. I don't think flipping the E30 for a profit qualifies (we've certainly seen plenty of that), so you're still in, because nobody would seriously consider a $25k+ engine swap and expect to profit. You're certain to end upside down, even in this insane market.

But ask yourself - what will make you actually enjoy the car more? To some, it's the driving experience. If that is the case, minimize your downtime/costs and just enjoy it for what it is. These days, even the fastest M20 is slow, but even so, I still find it far more thrilling than anything modern I've been in. It would be far less thrilling if it was a non-running parts car trapped in my garage with $20k sunk into it and no end in sight to finishing. That's the trap I'm advising against.

Of course, if you mostly enjoy the build portion, and don't care about how long the car is out of commission or how expensive it will be, then do whatever swap makes you happy. You'll probably sell it anyway, and in this market you might get lucky and break even regardless. It's entirely possible that a functioning Ferrari engine will be worth as much as the whole build, lol.

Honestly these are all very fair points and thank you heaps for the advice!

At the end of the day, I love my E30 and no matter what engine is in it, it's still pretty special to me. I've bought and sold a lot of cars in the amount of time I've owned my E30, and now it's no different. I'm even considering selling an E92 M3, which for the price I think is one of the best cars ever, and yet the E30 is still the one I'm tempted to build instead. This swap will definitely not be something I'd be looking to flip, because honestly, it'll be hard to recover all the costs. I still want to know that it holds some significant value, but the aim of this build would be to have it as my forever car.

Either way, there's lots to think about and definitely lots of pros and cons for all the options in my head haha!

[E30 Wagen]

I don't want to be mean but you're not making any sense. You really love your M3, but you're considering selling it because it's costly to own. However, you're then prepared to take the funds from that and spend pretty much all of it building your e30, or rather pay somebody else to build it, with the same or similar drivetrain. The reason for this seems purely because it would be unique and sound insane. Beyond that the use case isn't clear, moreover you seem perfectly happy with your e30 as is; it really is a nice looking car. Still, you seem set on high revving V8s, but you've already got that in your e92.. If you want a dct then trade it in for one of those. I get it's fun to talk about this stuff (I've started threads like this), but I don't think many of us can relate to deciding what is the raddest V8 that you can pay a shop to fit in your e30. Sounds like you're manic posting or it's some kind of attention-seeking project for instagram or youtube.

[e30davie]

I hadn't really thought of that angle. I'm not really into supercars, or Ferrari's - honestly even if I did want to waste part of my fortune on one, I'd never be able to use it - but if you can afford a Ferrari engine and everything that goes into keeping one running, just buy a Ferrari and be done with it. (Ferraris are seriously rare here too - even extremely old ones).

I've been thinking of engine swaps for so long that I've been married, had kids, and forgotten about it before the E46 M3 was rendered obsolete. My ultimate passion swap has always been the S54 - in that time, and for even my meager efforts - I could have just bought an E46 M3 and been far better off. Of course I didn't do that, and I don't necessarily regret it..
....

I think we have all been guilty of that. planning out all of these crazy ideas when we could have the same or more joy immediately by just buying something and driving it. But planning silly ideas is part of the fun. Dreaming is free, but it has an emotional cost! haha

Here in Australia back in the day big thing was putting an sr20det into everything, as maybe 10yrs ago they were quite cheap (not anymore.......). we did it on an ae86, but then i bit the bullet and just bought an s15 Silvia. Didn't have the uniqueness of the sr20det ae86 of course, but it was comfortable, quiet, AC worked, power steering worked, nice interior, oem lsd, IRS, good brakes oem, and was ultimately a better "car" for at the time simliar money to the whole conversion and upgrades on the 86.

....sr20det ae86 was pretty awesome though!

[purna97]

I don't want to be mean but you're not making any sense. You really love your M3, but you're considering selling it because it's costly to own. However, you're then prepared to take the funds from that and spend pretty much all of it building your e30, or rather pay somebody else to build it, with the same or similar drivetrain. The reason for this seems purely because it would be unique and sound insane. Beyond that the use case isn't clear, moreover you seem perfectly happy with your e30 as is; it really is a nice looking car. Still, you seem set on high revving V8s, but you've already got that in your e92.. If you want a dct then trade it in for one of those. I get it's fun to talk about this stuff (I've started threads like this), but I don't think many of us can relate to deciding what is the raddest V8 that you can pay a shop to fit in your e30. Sounds like you're manic posting or it's some kind of attention-seeking project for instagram or youtube.

I understand the confusion. I do love my M3, but honestly I've had my fun with it already. Also I'm thinking of selling the E92 M3 because it's costing me over $6000 a year to register and insure, whereas a heavily modified E30 at the same agreed value, on "historic" registration here in Australia would cost $1000 a year to register and insure. On top of this, my M3 is quite stock and to get it looking how I want it and performing how I want it, it'll cost me so much more money in modifications. My E30 where it sits is looking like how I want it and it is just waiting for a nice drivetrain. So it got me thinking that swapping in a drive train that I like (similar to the one in the M3) into my already established E30, would be a cool idea.

The reason why I was looking at high revving V8's is because I've had one and truly can say it's such a great engine. With the M3 being more expensive to run and modify, and not being as cool as my E30 (in my eyes sometimes), I thought to get the best of both worlds, it would be worth discussing swapping the M3 drive train into the E30. It may not even happen, but it's fun to dream and was hoping to get advice from those that know better. I'm not manic posting or posting for attention on YouTube/Instagram, I'm just posting to ask a group of enthusiasts what they thought of my dream E30 to see whether it's feasible and or worth it.

[nando]

I think we have all been guilty of that. planning out all of these crazy ideas when we could have the same or more joy immediately by just buying something and driving it. But planning silly ideas is part of the fun. Dreaming is free, but it has an emotional cost! haha

Here in Australia back in the day big thing was putting an sr20det into everything, as maybe 10yrs ago they were quite cheap (not anymore.......). we did it on an ae86, but then i bit the bullet and just bought an s15 Silvia. Didn't have the uniqueness of the sr20det ae86 of course, but it was comfortable, quiet, AC worked, power steering worked, nice interior, oem lsd, IRS, good brakes oem, and was ultimately a better "car" for at the time simliar money to the whole conversion and upgrades on the 86.

....sr20det ae86 was pretty awesome though!

Yeah, dude I totally get that as well. So, funny enough - the current plan is an N52 swap (and I don't think that will change, since there's really a dead end as far as N/A BMW inline-6 motors go). Yet, I daily drive an E90 330i, which has that exact same engine, as well as a 2012 X3 which was the last year that came with an N52 (it's an awesome engine, super underrated IMO). I could just sell the E30 and focus on the E90 - which I enjoy, but.. it's not an E30. It's boring by comparison, and that's totally based on passion and feelings rather than pure logic.

Objectively, the 330i is a better car in every way. And on a day when I just want heated seats or A/C, or if I think it's gonna rain and that means I'll have to wash the E30 - I'll pick the 330i every time. But I still cherish the good days I can pull out the E30, even though it's way less comfortable, less safe, less efficient and far slower.

BTW, the X3 might be the best car purchase our family has ever made (we bought it at the market bottom in 2020 - paid in cash for below market value). I wanted it specifically because it had the N52, and it was also the only one on the lot.

[E30 Wagen]

I understand the confusion. I do love my M3, but honestly I've had my fun with it already. Also I'm thinking of selling the E92 M3 because it's costing me over $6000 a year to register and insure, whereas a heavily modified E30 at the same agreed value, on "historic" registration here in Australia would cost $1000 a year to register and insure. On top of this, my M3 is quite stock and to get it looking how I want it and performing how I want it, it'll cost me so much more money in modifications. My E30 where it sits is looking like how I want it and it is just waiting for a nice drivetrain. So it got me thinking that swapping in a drive train that I like (similar to the one in the M3) into my already established E30, would be a cool idea.

The reason why I was looking at high revving V8's is because I've had one and truly can say it's such a great engine. With the M3 being more expensive to run and modify, and not being as cool as my E30 (in my eyes sometimes), I thought to get the best of both worlds, it would be worth discussing swapping the M3 drive train into the E30. It may not even happen, but it's fun to dream and was hoping to get advice from those that know better. I'm not manic posting or posting for attention on YouTube/Instagram, I'm just posting to ask a group of enthusiasts what they thought of my dream E30 to see whether it's feasible and or worth it.

My advice, which I guess is just general life advice, is to avoid idealizing what the "coolest" thing that you can afford is. Never being satisfied with what you have and always imagining that there's this ultimate combination of stuff that you need to stretch yourself to attain just leaves you empty in the end.

[lukeADE335i]

Here in Australia back in the day big thing was putting an sr20det into everything, as maybe 10yrs ago they were quite cheap (not anymore.......). we did it on an ae86, but then i bit the bullet and just bought an s15 Silvia. Didn't have the uniqueness of the sr20det ae86 of course, but it was comfortable, quiet, AC worked, power steering worked, nice interior, oem lsd, IRS, good brakes oem, and was ultimately a better "car" for at the time simliar money to the whole conversion and upgrades on the 86.... sr20det ae86 was pretty awesome though!

That ae86 would have been great. I nearly got caught up in that fad too, looking to throw an SR20DET into my old e21, and then my wife’s Datsun 1200 when she decided to upgrade to a new car until I realised how big and heavy those engines are for an alloy block 4 cylinder! Have to admit, now that I’m older I’d just buy the S15 instead & in response to Nando above, I’ve been considering an N52 for my coupe build after reading through the N52 thread here, but given I could just buy a e82 125i manual with the same engine instead, without the engineering and registration hassles I think I’d rather just go with the e82.

[2mAn]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2011-bmw-m3-coupe-5/

Go to image 163...

CarBahn 4.6L V8. 30k, not sure if thats CAD or USD

[Northern]

I read 96k on that invoice lol, but I imagine they are CAD

[2mAn]

I read 96k on that invoice lol, but I imagine they are CAD

The 30k was just the rebuild cost lol

[moatilliatta]

SO is the S65 swapped E30 done yet?